This doesn't make sense to me. What do you think

[windwalker099]

A few more thoughts...

First, it's possible that the guy is deliberately not showing things; Chinese arts do have a reputation for showing one thing publicly, and another privately. Maybe he's deliberately showing a technique that's not so good...

Maybe not so much about withholding information, more like a single movement can have multiple applications.

What he demonstrated just happens to be the one he uses or prefers.
Typically, as mentioned in another demonstration, the legs handle attacks to the lower body, while the arms address attacks to the upper body.

Mantis, like many CMA styles, utilizes what are called the "8 Gates" — think of them as zones that cover different areas of defense and attack.

Mantis at times does use the hands in dealing with leg or kicking attacks.

The teacher mentions the danger in using both hands to do it..

note the teacher in the video does not do this..One hand down the other up covering for the next movement
his stomp, drops his weight helps to unify his body with the movement.
Not just a matter of punching down...

 

[JowGaWolf]

A few more thoughts...

First, it's possible that the guy is deliberately not showing things; Chinese arts do have a reputation for showing one thing publicly, and another privately. Maybe he's deliberately showing a technique that's not so good...

But, to me, this technique set can work. It's not a basic technique. There's a lot of positioning and set up involved in making it work, and he's not showing that. If I were to do something similar, I'd step forward almost towards or on the opponent's left foot. That puts me deep inside, weakening the kick if it does make contact. The strike isn't going to be into the shin, ideally -- it's into the calf, parts of the knee, or thigh. Then, I'm in position for those strikes to go up the middle, at close range.

Give it a try in light sparring and let me share the results of what you discover. I would be curious to see if you get the same difficulties that I see with it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

First, it's possible that the guy is deliberately not showing things; Chinese arts do have a reputation for showing one thing publicly, and another privately. Maybe he's deliberately showing a technique that's not so good...

I can see this as being the reason why it doesn't make sense. I don't like the practice of showing things incorrectly especially these days, but I can see that being the case. I was told by my last Jow Ga teacher that forms done for performance were not the forms being taught in the classes. He said that they alter the forms so that on lookers couldn't get certain things correct.

My thoughts about stuff like that is that it is poisoning the reliability of the system by intentionally introducing bad and incorrect information. It doesn't protect anything because what people are seeing is the video of things done wrong while "how to do it correctly" gets lost. Then Kung Fu wonders why it has such a difficult time competing against boxing and other systems.

But you are correct. Intentionally showing bad information wouldn't be unheard of in CMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

First, it's possible that the guy is deliberately not showing things; Chinese arts do have a reputation for showing one thing publicly, and another privately. Maybe he's deliberately showing a technique that's not so good...

Not showing and show the wrong application are different. The person put his own reputation on the line which is not a smart thing to do.

For example, if you publish a Taiji book that only show the Taiji form without showing Taiji application. To you, you may think your Taiji application is secret and don't want to share to the public. But when readers read your Taiji book, they may think that you don't understand Taiji application at all.

I have met both kinds of MA teachers.

1. Don't want to share his secret.
2. Intentional share the wrong information.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are bad.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not showing and show the wrong application are different. The person put his own reputation on the line which is not a smart thing to do.

Good point. I didn't even think about the effect that it has on reputation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does anyone know the name of this technique? I'm having a difficult time finding it. I want to say that I've come across it in shaolin kung fu forms.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I can see this as being the reason why it doesn't make sense. I don't like the practice of showing things incorrectly especially these days, but I can see that being the case. I was told by my last Jow Ga teacher that forms done for performance were not the forms being taught in the classes. He said that they alter the forms so that on lookers couldn't get certain things correct.

My thoughts about stuff like that is that it is poisoning the reliability of the system by intentionally introducing bad and incorrect information. It doesn't protect anything because what people are seeing is the video of things done wrong while "how to do it correctly" gets lost. Then Kung Fu wonders why it has such a difficult time competing against boxing and other systems.

But you are correct. Intentionally showing bad information wouldn't be unheard of in CMA.

100% agree.

 

[Flying Crane]

My thoughts about stuff like that is that it is poisoning the reliability of the system by intentionally introducing bad and incorrect information. It doesn't protect anything because what people are seeing is the video of things done wrong while "how to do it correctly" gets lost. Then Kung Fu wonders why it has such a difficult time competing against boxing and other systems.

This kinda presumes that learning from random videos on the internet is a viable way to go about getting one’s kung fu instruction. Really, it isn’t.

To anyone that the fellow in the video has accepted as a student, he has an obligation to teach properly and clearly. To all others, including internet rubberneckers, he has no obligation whatsoever. Nothing gets poisoned so long as his actual students are getting good instruction. They are the only ones who matter.

As far as the video goes and whether what he showed is correct in his mind, I have no comment. I suspect there is a lot of context that is missing from that short clip, and could shed some light on the issue, if we knew it. But we don’t. So I don’t feel a short clip like this tells us anything, and it is a mistake to read too much into it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This kinda presumes that learning from random videos on the internet is a viable way to go about getting one’s kung fu instruction. Really, it isn’t.

But if your students are using the videos as references then it could still have a negative effect. Personally, I could see a Sifu say, "don't watch any of my youtube videos because it's all wrong."

I just can't see the reality of them showing this and intentionally making it "bad choice" application or leaving things out for the purpose, so it doesn't work. I can see them leave stuff out in a performance but not when they are describing a "how to application." demonstration. I accept that it's possible but not likely. A kung fu performance in the street definitely. A discussion about application? Why bother to leave stuff out? Just don't cover it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Tony Dismukes
I was glad I found this. This is not Praying Mantis technique but it has the posture that I was talking about in regard to the scooping hand that you pointed out.

1st the clip. This clip shows the guy on the right grabbing the guy on the left.

2nd. When I did the movement with my son, The guy on the right. is being grabbed by the guy on the left. In order to lock the wrist, the elbow has to point up like in the praying mantis video. The scooping hand controls the elbow.

Here you can reall see that elbow pointing up. From this position you drop the weight and punch down ward. Based on the tension I felt in my sons wrist, I think his wrist would pop before the elbow. Keep in min that this is the defender (right) grabbing the attacker. When I did with my son it was the attacker grabs the defender.

He has the same position when the technique is used in grappling but he didn't have any of those additional movement when he was punching. He eve has the same foot foward as the pictures above. This would also be safer than trying to time in incoming round house kick. If the opponent is grabbing me, then I don't have to worry about "What if I miss" because my attacker has guaranteed that I won't by grabbing me..

 

[Flying Crane]

But if your students are using the videos as references then it could still have a negative effect. Personally, I could see a Sifu say, "don't watch any of my youtube videos because it's all wrong."

I just can't see the reality of them showing this and intentionally making it "bad choice" application or leaving things out for the purpose, so it doesn't work. I can see them leave stuff out in a performance but not when they are describing a "how to application." demonstration. I accept that it's possible but not likely. A kung fu performance in the street definitely. A discussion about application? Why bother to leave stuff out? Just don't cover it.

Getting back to the idea of context. Who did the filming? Why was it being filmed? For whom was it intended? Who decided to post it on the internet? Was that posting done with his blessing? Perhaps this was a short, spontaneous lesson meant for a couple of people, and was never meant for the internet. Because even that short lesson had a larger context that gives it more meaning, which context is completely missing for the internet gawkers. If he has serious students, I expect they know what material is worth using as reference, and what isn’t. His students will be clued into that. No danger of them getting confused on that issue because they know that internet video clips are not a reliable way to get instruction, especially when they are working with the guy directly.

This is a 29-second video without any explanation in English. I do not know the fellow, have never trained with him nor otherwise in his system. For me, this is case of “hmmm, interesting” and that is about as far as it goes. I am in no position to judge or evaluate what he is doing. But that’s just me, I don’t mind recognizing when I simply do not know something. Maybe you feel you have a stronger bead on things and you can make that judgement. I dunno.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Maybe you feel you have a stronger bead on things and you can make that judgement. I dunno.

The only thing I have is curiosity. What am I seeing? What is being shown? What are the hands doing? What are the arms doing? What are the legs doing? Is the technique for punching or is it for grappling or both? What are the limits of the technique? Does the technique following similar principles found in CMA. Is the technique used in other system in which I may be able to reference?

All of this curiosity is part of learning. I do the same thing even when I'm sparring and I try to figure it out so that I know how to deal with it, or figure it out so that I can understand where I find success. failure, or risk.

Just because he's the teacher doesn't mean I can't question or probe, or ask, or analyze.

If he has serious students, I expect they know what material is worth using as reference, and what isn’t.

This I don't believe. I've seen too many TMA artists fail against take downs because they were trained to believe that they could punch their way out of a good take down. I've seen too many people like Rokus who rose to higher ranks than I have achieved only to abandon all that they trained. I've seen too many CMA students train hundred's of techniques but only know how to apply basic kicks and basic punches.

"Serious Student" could simply mean that one is serious about forms, etiquette, and cultural tradition. "Serious Student" does not mean one knows how to apply the techniques that are taught.

This is a 29-second video without any explanation in English.

In fighting you have even less time than that to figure out your opponent's strategy and what he's trying to do, yet many of us are able to figure that out.

I understand the Etiquette thing, and the save face thing, and don't question the teacher stuff. I know for many to do so is an uncomfortable thing. But I don't let what's uncomfortable stop me from trying to understand. And I don't by into the "If you really want to understand then train that system." I spar System A vs System B. I gain better understanding by asking and questions, taking that information that they give me, analyze it so I can come up with a Jow Ga answer. There are a lot of people out there who train but don't understand.

Some may think I'm attacking the teacher but I'm not. I'm asking about the technique, I'm analyzing what I see, I'm analyzing what those movements could be. If it's a punch, then what are the pros and cons of using it as a punch? But some in this thread are even uncomfortable about asking that question. Nothing I've done is outside of critical thinking.

Getting back to the idea of context. Who did the filming? Why was it being filmed? For whom was it intended? Who decided to post it on the internet? Was that posting done with his blessing? Perhaps this was a short, spontaneous lesson meant for a couple of people, and was never meant for the internet.

So I'm going to bring up this question and share my thoughts.
1. Who did the filming? Do I ask this question when I see BJJ videos, boxing videos, or any similar video that shows someone teaching something?

2. What is he saying? He's speaking English. Translation: When he kicks. One , Two like that (as he hits the groin). Again... One, Two. One, Two, Three. This is convenient, understand that it's convenient not separate

There's nothing wrong with trying to understand a system that you don't train in. Like I've aways said. Focus on the technique and not the teacher. If you were to spar against me, my teacher won't come to mind. You will only see the technique and you'll have less than 29 seconds to figure out how I'm trying to attack you.

Focus on the technique and not the teacher. Application creates Form,

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think many people have valid input here. Often, these types of videos spur arguments that IMO may boil down to techniques vs tactics. Which is it? Both? I’m a very hard critic of the way people move rather than focusing on a technique or tactics. Anyone can learn a technique, but if they don’t have balance, posture, and coordination it will be much less effective. Same with tactics, a great plan is wonderful and yet meaningless without effective technique. Technique is valueless without the physical foundation to apply it skillfully. So, in this video what we seeing? No one seems sure how to answer. I don’t think it’s because we are all afraid to offend, nor do I believe it’s because anyone is trying to save face.

 

[JowGaWolf]

think many people have valid input here. Often, these types of videos spur arguments that IMO may boil down to techniques vs tactics.

This is the only place where I can think freely about Kung Fu. I tried to have a similar conversation in a Jow Ga community about how I apply some basic stuff and no one responded with how they apply there techniques. So I've been planning on how to ask in a way that gets people to open up a little to at least share what works for them.

After being punched so many times when what I thought would work fails I'm pretty much of the mindset that techniques are like puzzle pieces. The problem isn't the puzzle piece. Sometimes we apply a working piece incorrectly, but we don't know until we turn that piece around to see if it gives a good fit. Sometimes a technique needs to connect 2 additional pieces in order have a good fit.



I think he sold me on a Tai Chi ball. He makes this look comfortable, but it is probably more work than it appears. But it definitely looks like I can use it for rehab.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the only place where I can think freely about Kung Fu.

At 0.29, the long fist 一路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #1 also have that move. It can be as simple as a downward punch to your opponent belly when you have controlled his leading arm.

At 0.21, the long fist 二路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #2 also have that move.

The 1st move of the 功力拳 Gong Li Quan (at 0.01) is a double punches straight up. What can be the application for this?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is the only place where I can think freely about Kung Fu. I tried to have a similar conversation in a Jow Ga community about how I apply some basic stuff and no one responded with how they apply there techniques. So I've been planning on how to ask in a way that gets people to open up a little to at least share what works for them.

After being punched so many times when what I thought would work fails I'm pretty much of the mindset that techniques are like puzzle pieces. The problem isn't the puzzle piece. Sometimes we apply a working piece incorrectly, but we don't know until we turn that piece around to see if it gives a good fit. Sometimes a technique needs to connect 2 additional pieces in order have a good fit.



I think he sold me on a Tai Chi ball. He makes this look comfortable, but it is probably more work than it appears. But it definitely looks like I can use it for rehab.

Dr Yang has my lead student doing tai chi ball and he has acquired quite a bit of ability with it. Try tying two tether balls together with a 6 ft soft non stretch nylon cord. Use it with alternating rotations until the weight of the balls straighten the cord like a staff. Now go over and under like basic staff rotations until you get the feeling and don’t hit the back of your head or calves anymore. Now start moving and circling step, cross step, hop step without losing the motion and rotation of the balls and you should be able to keep the motion without grasping the cord at all. Let it roll over the open palm like you would a solid staff. You must use the core to engage the rotations and counter the centrifugal forces created by the weight of the swing balls. It’s a weighted, connected poi ball set that requires more than hands and wrists to control it and move with it. I find it far more useful than Tai Chi ball by itself.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

At 0.29, the long fist 一路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #1 also have that move. It can be as simple as a downward punch to your opponent belly when you have controlled his leading arm.

At 0.21, the long fist 二路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #2 also have that move.

The 1st move of the 功力拳 Gong Li Quan (at 0.01) is a double punches straight up. What can be the application for this?

In mai fu Quan I think of that move as entry for small arm wrap. Long fist small arm wrap is far superior to white crane version of small arm wrap, very similar but the under over approach elicits more pain with a shorter application time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

At 0.29, the long fist 一路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #1 also have that move. It can be as simple as a downward punch to your opponent belly when you have controlled his leading arm.

At 0.21, the long fist 二路埋伏拳 Mai Fu Quan #2 also have that move.

The 1st move of the 功力拳 Gong Li Quan (at 0.01) is a double punches straight up. What can be the application for this?

By the way, both of these guys move very well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The scooping hand controls the elbow.

View attachment 32563

If you use this move as arm control, your downward hand should have your large fist eye pointing toward your opponent instead of pointing toward yourself.