This doesn't make sense to me. What do you think

[JowGaWolf]

He doesn't mention the style or what his grandfather taught him, presumably it would have been n-mantis Shandong his province said to be the birthplace of the style.

An earlier post I mention 7 hard 7 soft ways,,,I was wrong..
This is what I was thinking, from his site..

Punching – Eight Hard & Twelve Soft

If you watch close you can see the movement in question.
He mentions 7* mantis..His movement has more of plum flower mantis flavor.

Bung Bo considered one of the foundational forms.
7* star by a noted teacher Brenden Lai..
He learned in HK...the flavor is different.

some thoughts


The movements are trained so that the combinations are delivered as one movement.
although the techniques are broken down typically they're not used in single movement.


Indeed.

My first introduction to mantis in Korea was like this.

Do you want to try your White Crane against my student?


My first introduction on a hot, humid summer day in Korea to a style and teacher who had used his art during and after the Korean war. The teacher a medium sized Korean man nothing really special stood out except for his eyes. People often talk of the eye of the “Tiger” Mr Park, had the eyes of a shark…Cold, jet black, seemingly with out emotion.

In a gym on a US Army camp close to the demilitarized zone “DMZ” a test was being conducted between 2 very different ideas.


We saluted each other and set up about 6 feet apart from each other. Each in a posture distinctive to the style. Having encountered many other stylist before, White Crane being at home as long range style I was quite confident of the outcome.

Started to move, before my foot hit the ground Mr Cho, had covered the distance, dropped low, and touched my face with a quick flicking movement of his hand the mantis “dill sow” or mantis claw.

We looked at each other and smiled, both knowing the outcome should it continue, one not in my favor. I saluted him and turned to Mr Park who was watching quietly.

At the time I was looking for a change...and started to train with Mr. Park.
In retrospect mistake.

one of Mr Parks students in Korea

Never thought much about it, we had movements similar to it
The teachers movement has a Shandong flavor to it..

As mentioned, spent some time practicing mantis.
An interesting style...Not really my cup of tea.

At 1:18 I saw a similar move to the one that I posted but the arm doesn't punch down it moves outward. Jow Ga has a similar technique but I can never get it right. Last time I did it, it felt like I broke my arm, but the what I saw gives me a better understanding of the motion that I should use to move a front kick (not a round house kick) out of the way. Thanks for sharing that video.

This is the one here. In Jow Ga, the hammer fist strikes the side of an incoming front kick. The angle that shows in the Jow Ga form is not the correct angle. It's the same movement, but the form is missing some key points. This one looks like form kept those key points.

This is the body position in small tiger. It can be be with fist or open hand. I use fist closed becasue I don't want my fingers to be injured in the event that the kick hits my hand. Notice that there aren't any angles in the technqiue below. If someone does it like this then they risk breaking their arm. Speaking from experience when it felt like I broke mine.

Not taking the angle causes the movement of the arm to come down on top of a front kick "1 shin vs 1 foream". Had I cut that 45 degree angle withmy rear foot then I would have been able to avoid the kick by moving my body and then strike the kicking leg with my fist. Now I have to double check all of the Jow Ga forms that I know for missing angles going forward and backwards. If I'm correct about that missing angle for Jow Ga Kung Fu then my sparring parters are about to have some sore thighs from that hammer fist lol

 

[windwalker099]

8 steps mantis...
Met James a long time ago...in SF..
Cool guy, very quick..

In the video the movement "crouch Tiger, hitting dragon"

Shown as a slap used a against a front kick..

James was very quick. People from other styles would visit, he would have them set up about 6 feet (1.8 meters) away. He would then close the gap and take them down before they could react.
His movement so smooth closing the gap, it almost looked like he was sliding on ice.


As with many CMA styles, what they specialized in was highly developed...

Won Hon Fan, n-mantis king 7* star mantis

note: the flavor of the movement, light, quick, multiple movements combined in one attack,
as its namesake.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As with many CMA styles, what they specialized in was highly developed

This is why I don't try to "fix" or "modernize" CMA. My first assumption when techniques don't work is that I'm missing data on the correct applications of it, or there are missing steps like, cutting angles. that I'm unaware of. It's just difficult to know if those things were intentionally left out, intentionally changed to make a martial arts performance look better, or if it was lost when upcoming teachers only focused on the form and not the application. Many people who do kung fu want to learn forms and win trophies for forms. But there are very few that want to fight, and even fewer want to fight using the techniques that they train.

Unfortunately fighting is the only way to develop fighting techniques. In a military sense, when North Korea talk about their soldiers fighting ability. My first thought was they haven't been in a battle in a very long time. When their soldiers went to Russia to fight, it showed. So now their soldiers are getting updated battle experience. I'm not sure if it will help much beyond having a more accurate understanding of what they are against if they choose to fight the world. Martial Arts is like that. When the majority of practitioners don't fight using the techniques that are taught in the form, then there are bound to be some gaps and misconceptions.

 

[Badhabits]

I slowed the original video way down and enlarged it. It appears the defender is slightly shifting his hips away from the kick, which should take most of the sting out if it did connect- it would hit past the apex of the kick. It also appears his fist is coming right down on the side of the kneecap rather than meeting force head on. I could see this working if it went as planned.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I slowed the original video way down and enlarged it. It appears the defender is slightly shifting his hips away from the kick, which should take most of the sting out if it did connect- it would hit past the apex of the kick. It also appears his fist is coming right down on the side of the kneecap rather than meeting force head on. I could see this working if it went as planned.

He demonstrated the movement 3 times. One time he missed the leg entirely, one time he punched the knee, and one time he punched the shin. That's against a slow, half-assed kick that he knew was coming. I don't think that bodes well for his chances of success executing the technique against a real kick in a fight.

If anyone has a sparring partner and some free time. Bait them to grab your arm and punch downward like the Praying Mantis technique shown in the first post. Let me know how your sparring partner reacts to that. I'm curious to know if it breaks the grip.

It could definitely work as a grip break. When he demonstrates the movement for the first time (without a partner) watch his left hand. It's scooping up as the right hand punches down. If the opponent has a cross-side wrist grab (right vs right), the left hand can scoop under the opponent's grabbing arm to keep it from following as the practitioner punches down with the right to break the grip. Bonus - if the movement is being used as a grip break, then you are already in the correct range for the groin strike rather than trying to close in from kicking range.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does anyone do Prayign Matis who has pulled this technique off as shown in the video? What are you thoughts.

It's just a "spiral punch" that start as a hook punch to the head but end with a straight punch to the chest.

- You throw a right hook punch at your opponent's head.
- Your opponent blocks your right hook punch with his left arm.
- You use your right upper arm to press down his left blocking arm and change your hook punch into a straight punch toward his chest. Your right arm was on top of your opponent's left arm. Now your right arm is inside of your opponent's left arm. Your opponent's left blocking arm is like a tree branch. Your right arm act like a snake that circular move along the tree branch.

IMO, people do this downward to hide the true application during form performance from the public.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He demonstrated the movement 3 times. One time he missed the leg entirely, one time he punched the knee, and one time he punched the shin. That's against a slow, half-assed kick that he knew was coming. I don't think that bodes well for his chances of success executing the technique against a real kick in a fight.

Good point. He missed the slow demo kick. And taking into consideration the various movement of a round house kick There's just way too much risk and perfection to overcome. If I could punch a kick like that, then I would do MMA.

Know your enemy (Know what you are against)

Not related to the post, but definitely one of the nicest versions of this kick I've ever seen.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Get hit in the face or the groin? They're two of my favorite parts . I'll take door #3.

Ok, I can hear the therapist now. “Can you show me on the doll where door #3 is? Is that where he hit you?”

 

[Badhabits]

He demonstrated the movement 3 times. One time he missed the leg entirely, one time he punched the knee, and one time he punched the shin. That's against a slow, half-assed kick that he knew was coming. I don't think that bodes well for his chances of success executing the technique against a real kick in a fight.


It could definitely work as a grip break. When he demonstrates the movement for the first time (without a partner) watch his left hand. It's scooping up as the right hand punches down. If the opponent has a cross-side wrist grab (right vs right), the left hand can scoop under the opponent's grabbing arm to keep it from following as the practitioner punches down with the right to break the grip. Bonus - if the movement is being used as a grip break, then you are already in the correct range for the groin strike rather than trying to close in from kicking range.

Gotcha. I only looked at the section where he hit the knee. Wonder why someone would put a video out there where they can't get what they're demonstrating correct lol. I guess it's one of those any target is as good as none videos
I have punched people's feet and legs in sparring so it didn't seem too far fetched at first

 

[JowGaWolf]

It could definitely work as a grip break. When he demonstrates the movement for the first time (without a partner) watch his left hand. It's scooping up as the right hand punches down. If the opponent has a cross-side wrist grab (right vs right), the left hand can scoop under the opponent's grabbing arm to keep it from following as the practitioner punches down with the right to break the grip. Bonus - if the movement is being used as a grip break, then you are already in the correct range for the groin strike rather than trying to close in from kicking range.

So I just tried the same movement with my son. First I did a cross grab (right hand grabs right arm.) I didn't use my left hand because I just wanted to see how his grab was affected by it. After that I tried a same side grab (left hand grabs right arm). I disovered that it is possible to lock the attackers arm.

Here are my steps. (Grip used: Palm over top of wrist)
I made sure that I followed the movement as close as possible. Key points from circular systems.
1. You have to do the circular motion. Circular motion is more difficult to control if you are trying to hold on with a grip. Circular motion puts the grabbing hand into weak pulling position so the attacker ends up holding on to seek controk. And now that I've said this, I'm starting to feel like I've seen something similar in Aikdo.

So brinng the arm up in a high circular motion is a must. At the peak of the circle, The fist will become a hook. You'll know right away when you get it because you'll feel the tension.

2. The second important piece is that you turn your wrist as you punch your arm downward. If you look at the picture below, you can see the right fist. From this view we are actually looking at the palm of his fist, That gives you a good idea of how far to turn the fist. I was only able to turn it so far before could feel my shoulder lock up. Which leads to the next step.

3. There no way to be strong in this position by only pushing down with the arm, so to maximize that downward force, simply drop your stance into the of the wrist

Based on these two things. I think it's a grip break and a grip lock. That tension in my sons wrist was just too perfect to be a coincidence. That hooking for the fist felt familar to other locks I've done.

Give it a try, I wouldn't try it with someone that much shorter than you because you won't be able to make that circular motion. You can be a few inches taller, You may have to lower widen your stance to get the correct height to do the circular motion.

Make sure that you do it slowly to see if you can pick up the tension. From the first try, I would say this would damage the wrist to with the drop. and downward punch.

I would be curious to see if others get the same result when going slow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's just a "spiral punch" that start as a hook punch to the head but end with a straight punch to the chest.

I would have thought that too with the exception that he was punching a knee. Tony also pointed out that the left hand was doing a scooping motion. Scooping motions are very specific and it usually means that it's actively doing something. From the cross grab attack. I do that motion and seize the elbow. From the same I can do the same thing.

This is the scooping hand that Tony pointed out. This motion is not the motion that you make to guard your face.

This is the turning of the wrist so that the palm of the ist is pointing outer. The rotation of the wrist in techniques usually indicates that you are escapting something or locking your opponents wrist. I'm familiar with downward punches and how they feel. I wouldn't be afraid of this as a downward punch becuase his knuckles arn't going to rip into my stomach at this angle.

Keep in mind that if he were applying this technique to the viewer, then the knuckles should be hitting us and not the palm of the fist. The position that he's in is "Enemy Facing" where the camera is .

This picture is where the the left hand guards the face and prepares for the trap -> Backfist after the groin strike.

It's the default for low strikes because one hand is down and the other hand protects the face.

Rambling below.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is also used used for Trap -> Bask fist.

Hand that was protecting the faces reaches foward to parry down the incoming face. Low arm does circular movement to attack with the Vertical Backfist.

The same sequence here, but his trap is more open than how I do mine. In application, his trap will miss the straight punch heading towards his face. In application you want the trap to go in front to protect your face but to also hide the back fist or in his case, the hammer fist.
I'm not saying that he doesn't know this but there's a difference between what is shown here and what you want to consider when doing the Trap-Backfist. Some people will do a lazy low kick to draw the hands down and to hide the advancing step. As soon as that foot lands, they will blast their opponent with straight punches and jabs.

This is what it looks like when Trap hides the Backfist or Hammer fist which is what he throws. The only time I throw a Trap-> Hammer Fist is when my opponent moves to the outside of my Vertical Backfist or when I want to hammer fist someone on the forehead. If you send it

 

[windwalker099]

The teacher should be in his 70s, a little bit off in his demo at certain points and ?

Many things he mentioned would not agree with....concerning learning different styles.
Maybe it explains his flavor of mantis....

He talks about taiji,,,,quite interesting, as he has his own style
pre dating what is recognized as taiji now.
He says it's a Daoist style of more than 1000 yrs old

China, big place with a long history....

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wonder why someone would put a video out there where they can't get what they're demonstrating correct lol.

In TMA, my teacher knows more than me so I do things as my teacher says. Unfortunately, Teacher says " My teacher knows more than me so I do things as my teacher says." This goes on for generations so even if they never have tried to use the technique as shown, They will say "This is the application." There are things in Jow Ga that I've tried because that's what my teacher showed me and it failed, then one day when I was using the technique, a front kick came in and I almost threw my sparring partner backwards like in the push hands video where people go back 20 yards.

But in my case the "punching technique" is a grappling technique and an excellent one at that. Now here is the interesting part.. I train this throwing technique on the heavy back and it looks like I'm training a strike. This is throw and not a strike. You can't tell unless you try to use it as a strike and then try to use is as a throw. The stike always feels wrong. It doesn't move well, the strike lands soft than what you hope. It doesn't click. It's like a car with 4 flat tires. But when used as a throw, it's magic. You don't even have to make adjustments to this technique.

Keep in mind this is a throw and not a punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The teacher should be in his 70s, a little bit off in his demo at certain points and ?

There's is no "and." None of that changes the realities of trying to punch a round house kick. It's not about the teacher, it's about the technique and the application of it. If you bring up a person's age, then it's no longer about the technique it's about that person.

This is a slow and kind and kind kick roudhouse kick that found my head. I misread the kick aI aslo try to block the wrong way "This is what happens when that block misses. This is what happens next." I'm not 70, I definitely wasn't 70 back then.

This is another slow and kind kick. This is why my brother kicked me in the head lol. My brother is younger than me. At the the time he was an Amateur Muay Thai fighter. He still got caught with a slow kick from a guy who trained round hous kicks probably 5 times a year.. 3 people different people who got kicked by a slow kick. We couldn't stop the slow kick from reaching our heads. Imagine how more difficult it will be to punch a lower round house kick.

Focus on the realities of what a technique goes against. Ask questions about what you see in the context of what you are applying the technique to. .

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have punched people's feet and legs in sparring so it didn't seem too far fetched at first

Were these round house kicks or front kicks?

 

[Badhabits]

Were these round house kicks or front kicks?

I've punched the instep on round kicks. Also the thigh. I say punch the instep, but in sparring it's more placing the fist in the path of the instep so you don't hurt your partner. I'm pretty positive it would cause damage if done with that intent. One point- I suspect that years of makiwara work has made my fists more resilient to damage. Not sure if it would be a good idea otherwise. Front kicks I'll catch the foot and hit the side of the knee or inside the thigh. I like a palm heel to side of the knee, follow through can turn over or fold their leg and leads to a takedown. Some people throw a front kick, if you scootch your core back a little, you can absorb the kick and use that to under hook the foot with one hand. People tend to bend the knee up when you catch a front kick which makes hitting the thigh easier. A hard hit to the thigh is miserable, I consider it a viable target. Keep in mind these aren't really things I make a point of doing, it's one of those "when the opportunity presents itself" things. I don't recall ever hitting someone's shin head on.

 

[Holmejr]

not a fan of the style, but did train in it for a little while....
offering some thoughts...reading the post.

Trained with some noted teachers in n-mantis

plum flower
7 star

Knew a teacher who did 8 step...
He was very good...from Taiwan...




The speed and distance that skilled n-mantis practitioners can cover is hard to believe.
A hallmark of the style, known for its explosive and agile movements.

If memory serves me, n-mantis techniques can be done in different ways, "seven hard and seven soft"
executing the same technique.
Could be wrong,,,was a long time ago...

The specific methods depends on the style, teacher’s preferences, along with the student’s inclinations,.

It can be a bit confusing when a teacher stops at each beat of a combination to emphasize specific points. it differs from actual application, where contact is typically fast and light, with techniques flowing seamlessly.

Well, I suppose that if you are much faster than your opponent then you can do virtually anything you want. But the average, not very fast student might find it hard to pull off.

Also I realize that demos are just demos and we’re typically seeing abbreviations of an art.

If you can throw 6 punches:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,

at your opponent within 1 second (assume this is human maximum speed), what will happen to your opponent?

You will keep him busy and put him in defense mode. This is the "machine gun" principles that you may just hope 1 of your 6 punches can land on your opponent's head.

If you can land 2 or 3 punches on your opponent's face before he can block your punch, your opponent may not want to fight you after that. So, speed can be a civilized way to end a fight. You can scar your opponent with your speed without using much power.

Haha, i get a vision of the Korean speed puncher DK challenging Manny Pacquiao. DK prob thought “”with my superior speed and power…””

 

[windwalker099]

Well, I suppose that if you are much faster than your opponent then you can do virtually anything you want. But the average, not very fast student might find it hard to pull off.

Also I realize that demos are just demos and we’re typically seeing abbreviations of an art.

It’s not simply about being "faster" or relying on speed. Instead, it’s how the style is structured, based on the principles and methods it uses to develop attributes that make it appear so to others. Many people fail to understand this, often because they haven't practiced or trained in the style. Anyone who practices the style will seem faster to those who do not based on the practice itself.

Without understanding this, aspects some of the demo may be questioned, especially if viewers ignore what the teacher explicitly says in the video, "continuous, no separate."

Without having trained in the style, most people might not grasp what he means or how it is applied.

IME, there were many drawbacks to this approach, among other considerations.
Others may have different perspectives.

Do find it amusing when practitioners of "long arm" styles try to explain it to those who haven't practiced it, yet don’t apply the same logic when discussing "mantis" asking question's of something not practiced.

The discussion is interesting.
Don’t quite understand the fixation on the demo itself.

 

[windwalker099]

There's is no "and." None of that changes the realities of trying to punch a round house kick. It's not about the teacher, it's about the technique and the application of it.

How can it not be about the teacher if no other examples are used questioning the same technique?
The technique does not exist in isolation of the one applying it . The question is why is the person applying it as he does?

Similar techniques can be found among other mantis teachers, interpreting it in a different way.
What the teacher showed was a breakdown of each movement, not how the movements combined would actually work or be used in a live setting, nor how they’re practiced.

If you bring up a person's age, then it's no longer about the technique it's about that person.

The teacher appears to be in his 70s. This may impact on how and what he demos.
Not a comment of his skill set or style, only an observation of the realities of his age.

Many teachers as they got older, change things either consciously or
unconsciously influenced by their experience or insights.

No asked about why he stamps in his demo.
but does not go over the stamping or explain it in the movements

 

[JowGaWolf]

Haha, i get a vision of the Korean speed puncher DK challenging Manny Pacquiao. DK prob thought “”with my superior speed and power…””

I forgot about DK Yoo. I don't see much or hear much of him these days.