This doesn't make sense to me. What do you think

[JowGaWolf]

I came across this video and to me it doesn't make sense to me as shown. I can think of all the ways that this goes wrong starting with round house kicks are horizontally circular and are not done as the guy in the video did with that lazy kick. So for me the mechanics of the technique don't fit the incoming attack. So I'm thinking that this technique may be for when someone grabs your hand and you punch downward, then hammer fist. Or maybe it's a downward hoot to the body and then a hammer fist.

Does anyone do Prayign Matis who has pulled this technique off as shown in the video? What are you thoughts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Unless you have some pretty amazing iron fist conditioning, I don’t think punching directly into an oncoming shin is going to end well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Unless you have some pretty amazing iron fist conditioning, I don’t think punching directly into an oncoming shin is going to end well.

I do a lot of breaking. Because it's fun. But I once screwed up the timing and got my fist in front of a shin while blocking a front kick. Broke the 4th metacarpal of my left hand.
1 star, do not recommend.

 

[isshinryuronin]

So for me the mechanics of the technique don't fit the incoming attack. So I'm thinking that this technique may be for when someone grabs your hand and you punch downward, then hammer fist.

I agree that punching a kick is not the best option. Watching the video before reading your comments, I also thought the downward punch might be part of a grab defense. It could also be a prep to scooping a kicking leg off to the side, followed by a hammer fist or elbow. Both these seem better application of the movement.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Same as isshinryu, the movement itself could be useful, but not in their application. Instead of stepping into it and trying to punch the kick, step back and do the same motion but turn it into a sweep instead, then step in.

This seems like an instance of someone training a form without application, and misunderstanding what the application would be as a result.

 

[jks9199]

I can see it as a viable technique -- but timing is vital. I definitely would suggest moving in towards the opponent, and off the line. You're robbing the power of the kick by shortening the arc, and then the strikes he did went into the knee or calf, not the shin bone. Even the thigh works. Done right -- punching a kick can be really debilitatingly effective. Then, you're already inside -- that upward elbow is an easy feed, and sets up that backfist secondary.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The reason that your opponent kick at your groin is to bait you to drop your guard so he can punch to your face. To expose your face like that can be dangerous.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The reason that your opponent kick at your groin is to bait you to drop your guard so he can punch to your face. To expose your face like that can be dangerous.

Get hit in the face or the groin? They're two of my favorite parts . I'll take door #3.

 

[Holmejr]

The reason that your opponent kick at your groin is to bait you to drop your guard so he can punch to your face. To expose your face like that can be dangerous.

I’ve done this many times a feint, just like feinting in boxing.
Feint the jab, feint the lead kick, land the cross. Nice! Just one of a million combos.

 

[windwalker099]

n-mantis typically uses combination in what are called beats 3 to 5 movements executed at extremely high speed,
attempting to overwhelm the attacker....

In the video he mentions this "this continues, no separation"

He is showing "one application" of each movement.
In reality, it would be executed in a flurry based off of one trigger movement from the attacker.

The drawback of this approach is that, unlike other combinations, Mantis combos are linked and practiced as continuous sequences. Once initiated, the practitioner may find themselves 'locked' into the sequence for a brief period, limiting adaptability ,unable to change in real time. in dynamic situations

not a good place to be

 

[Holmejr]

The sequence thing is kinda scary.
way back in my Muay Thai days, the kicks came with such speed and force that a move like this would greatly increase the risk of damaging your hand, wrist or arm.

 

[windwalker099]

not a fan of the style, but did train in it for a little while....
offering some thoughts...reading the post.

Trained with some noted teachers in n-mantis

plum flower
7 star

Knew a teacher who did 8 step...
He was very good...from Taiwan...

way back in my Muay Thai days, the kicks came with such speed and force that a move like this would greatly increase the risk damaging your hand, wrist or arm. Ouch.

The speed and distance that skilled n-mantis practitioners can cover is hard to believe.
A hallmark of the style, known for its explosive and agile movements.

If memory serves me, n-mantis techniques can be done in different ways, "seven hard and seven soft"
executing the same technique.
Could be wrong,,,was a long time ago...

The specific methods depends on the style, teacher’s preferences, along with the student’s inclinations,.

It can be a bit confusing when a teacher stops at each beat of a combination to emphasize specific points. it differs from actual application, where contact is typically fast and light, with techniques flowing seamlessly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Get hit in the face or the groin? They're two of my favorite parts . I'll take door #3.

What's door #3?

I like to kick knee instead of groin because knee is lower than groin. My opponent either has to drop his arm lower (expose his face more), or lift up his leg (affect his balance).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

n-mantis typically uses combination in what are called beats 3 to 5 movements executed at extremely high speed,
attempting to overwhelm the attacker....

Many years ago, someone in Taiwan claimed that he could throw 6 punches within 1 second. He wanted to challenge Muhammad Ali. It never happened. When he came to US, he was knocked out by a tiger claw guy from NYC within 8 seconds match.

You can speed up straight punches and small circular punches. You can't speed up large circular punch such as back fist as shown in that video.

In this video, the 8 moves combo (straight punches and small circlular palm strikes/blocks) is repeated twice within 3 seconds.

3 / (2 x 8) = 0.1875 second per move.
1/ 0.1875 = 5.3333 punches (or blocks) per second.

IMO, to reach 6 punches per second is hard if not impossible.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The drawback of this approach is that, unlike other combinations, Mantis combos are linked and practiced as continuous sequences. Once initiated, the practitioner may find themselves 'locked' into the sequence for a brief period, limiting adaptability ,unable to change in real time. in dynamic situations

This is a risk if poorly executed and your momentum gets out of control. This risk can be mitigated if the attack is explosive and progressive, each step nullifying possible counters and keeping the opponent off balance on the way to the finishing strike. Timing the attack to when the opponent is momentarily vulnerable (out of position, taking a deep breath, distracted, etc.) will give you an advantage. I would not link more than 4 moves together keeping the attack quick and tight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The drawback of this approach is that, unlike other combinations, Mantis combos are linked and practiced as continuous sequences. Once initiated, the practitioner may find themselves 'locked' into the sequence for a brief period, limiting adaptability ,unable to change in real time. in dynamic situations

If you can throw 6 punches:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,

at your opponent within 1 second (assume this is human maximum speed), what will happen to your opponent?

You will keep him busy and put him in defense mode. This is the "machine gun" principles that you may just hope 1 of your 6 punches can land on your opponent's head.

If you can land 2 or 3 punches on your opponent's face before he can block your punch, your opponent may not want to fight you after that. So, speed can be a civilized way to end a fight. You can scar your opponent with your speed without using much power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

not a fan of the style, but did train in it for a little while....
offering some thoughts...reading the post.

Trained with some noted teachers in n-mantis

plum flower
7 star

Knew a teacher who did 8 step...
He was very good...from Taiwan...




The speed and distance that skilled n-mantis practitioners can cover is hard to believe.
A hallmark of the style, known for its explosive and agile movements.

If memory serves me, n-mantis techniques can be done in different ways, "seven hard and seven soft"
executing the same technique.
Could be wrong,,,was a long time ago...

The specific methods depends on the style, teacher’s preferences, along with the student’s inclinations,.

It can be a bit confusing when a teacher stops at each beat of a combination to emphasize specific points. it differs from actual application, where contact is typically fast and light, with techniques flowing seamlessly.

What do you think about this specific technique regarding the attack that is coming in? Take what you know of round house type kicks, such as the way that they move, the speed that they move at, the path that they travel (such as appearing to go to the mid section but landing at top), and take into consideration "What if I miss then what". We aren't saying that the technique is not valid, but it may be applied to the wrong attack.

Here's what I know of all martial arts.
1. Striking techniques take into consideration "What if I miss, then what." There is always recovery or Back up defense

 

[windwalker099]

"My first teacher was my grandfather. When I was six years old, he came to live with us after my grandmother passed away"

He doesn't mention the style or what his grandfather taught him, presumably it would have been n-mantis.
Shandong his province said to be the birthplace of the style.

An earlier post I mention 7 hard 7 soft ways,,,I was wrong..
This is what I was thinking, from his site..

Punching – Eight Hard & Twelve Soft

If you watch close you can see the movement in question.
He mentions 7* mantis..

Bung Bo considered one of the foundational forms.
7* star by a noted teacher Brenden Lai..
He learned in HK...the flavor is different.

some thoughts

This is a risk if poorly executed and your momentum gets out of control.

The movements are trained so that the combinations are delivered as one movement.

Although the techniques are broken down typically they're not used in single movement.
If one looks at them as single movements, it might be confusing .

If you can land 2 or 3 punches on your opponent's face before he can block your punch, your opponent may not want to fight you after that. So, speed can be a civilized way to end a fight.

Indeed.

My first introduction to mantis in Korea was like this.

Do you want to try your White Crane against my student?


My first introduction on a hot, humid summer day in Korea to a style and teacher who had used his art during and after the Korean war. The teacher a medium sized Korean man nothing really special stood out except for his eyes. People often talk of the eye of the “Tiger” Mr Park, had the eyes of a shark…Cold, jet black, seemingly with out emotion.

In a gym on a US Army camp close to the demilitarized zone “DMZ” a test was being conducted between 2 very different ideas.


We saluted each other and set up about 6 feet apart from each other. Each in a posture distinctive to the style. Having encountered many other stylist before, White Crane being at home as long range style I was quite confident of the outcome.

Started to move, before my foot hit the ground Mr Cho, had covered the distance, dropped low, and touched my face with a quick flicking movement of his hand the mantis “dill sow” or mantis claw.

We looked at each other and smiled, both knowing the outcome should it continue, one not in my favor. I saluted him and turned to Mr Park who was watching quietly.

At the time I was looking for a change...and started to train with Mr. Park.
In retrospect mistake.

one of Mr Parks students in Korea

What do you think about this specific technique regarding the attack that is coming in? Take what you know of round house type kicks,

Never thought much about it, we had movements similar to it
The teachers movement has a Shandong flavor to it..

As mentioned, spent some time practicing mantis.
An interesting style...Not really my cup of tea.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Unless you have some pretty amazing iron fist conditioning, I don’t think punching directly into an oncoming shin is going to end well.

To be fair though, this requires good timing, but spiking a roundhouse kick by jamming your knee into their thigh can be effective and extremely painful, but only for them

 

[JowGaWolf]

I watched the video again and saw ouOutOu

So the first example is this. He punches down on the shin and misses. This answers my "What if you miss, then what?" So if you try to punch down on round house kick, at the shine and miss (either too soon or too late) You get blasted in the arm or face with the kick.

He realizes the flaw in his first example and then he makes corrections. This is the part that I don't like to see. Because this type of correction often makes me think they are trying to figure things on the fly. Usually when a mistake is made, the person will call out their own mistake and say "Don't do it that way" I don't know what he's saying but his body posture doesn't seem to be explaining "Don't do it that way." The correction that he made from there was to punch the knee

If I was going to punch the kick then I would want to punch the part that moves the least so that I can increase my chances of actually hitting the kick. I know that the danger zone of a round house kick is at the end of the kick or at the shin (depending on the fighting system). Safe zone for round house kick is knee to thigh. I will be safe from the kick but will be closer to the punch.

For me, punching a kick like this presents too significant a trade-off between success and failure. The benefits a successful strike outSSoutweighed by the consequences of missing and striking the leg. It is uncharacteristic of Martial Arts in general to make such an uneven trade that doesn't benefit the practitioner.

I prefer this method of application demo because now the demo is done in the context the type of things one must deal with. Such as a low kick to the leg. That is set up by occupying the high guard.

Depending on the system that you are going against and the skill level of that person. That round house kick may be one that is done off center. The Praying Mantis technique is done with lead hand and lead leg. Looking at the picture, I woud still get kick trying to punch down on the kicking leg.

If anyone has a sparring partner and some free time. Bait them to grab your arm and punch downward like the Praying Mantis technique shown in the first post. Let me know how your sparring partner reacts to that. I'm curious to know if it breaks the grip. At this point with all of the input, I just don't see punching down on the leg as the correct use of that technique. If it works better against someone grabbing your arm and it set them up for a groin strike, then I would like to know.