There Is More To It Than Fighting

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think people find different reasons to train. Whether it is for self defense, personal protection, fitness, confidence, etc. All of them can be good each in their own way.

Now in IRT it is all about the martial! That is what we do! We prepare for conflict and personal protection. The other things like confidence, self awareness or realization and enlightenment, fitness and combative conditioning just happen as a by product of intense rigorous martial training. (and they do happen to a great degree

)

Now having said that I have friends that are in systems that are all about self realization and enlightenment. They enjoy what they do and I enjoy their company even more because they do it!

So in the end enjoy the martial system of your choice and have at it!

 

[Sukerkin]

Superb first and last lines there, Brian (not that what you said in betwen was any less worth comment) :tup:.

 

[MJS]

WOW, this thread grew quick!! I'll toss in my .02, seeing that it is my thread, and then touch on a few other posts.

IMO, the arts are primarily for fighting. That is what they were designed for. All the other stuff is a part of it, but often, I think that too much emphasis is placed on the art. I think that the art side is fine to work on, but it seems to me that people who train, tend to frown upon fighting and anyone that fights. Now of course I'm not advocating being a bully, but I'm simply saying that we should be so humble that we're on the same level as a door mat.

In a nutshell, I train for self defense. I dont train for fitness, or to make friends. I take my training seriously. Sure, those other things are all side effects of training, but those are on the bottom of my list.

 

[MJS]

On the contrary...I think that most places put to much emphasis on the "art" and not enough on developing solid, effective close-combat skills.

If you lose the "martial," you might as well go learn ballroom dancing for all the good it's going to do you. In other words, all the peripheral benefits of martial-arts training (discipline, patience, camaraderie, etc.) can be found in other endeavors. If the system does not teach fighting skills that are validated by pressure-testing and constantly re-evaluated based on "real life" considerations, then what's the point?...

just my $0.02

Exactly!!! So many times I see people who don't seem like they're taking anything serious, sickened at the thought of anything 'violent' and seem to be there for something to do after work. Yes, in that case, those folks are better suited for the dance or knitting class IMO.

 

[MJS]

You will learn the point when life has kicked you dead square in the *** for the next 20 years, which it will.

Evaluate your life. Which is more likely - getting attacked by ninjas and using your MA skills to defend yourself, or having your car break down and needing to protect yourself from the elements?

If the trunk of your car has a wind-up radio, a lighter, a mirror, a first-aid kit, a sleeping bag, a gallon of bottled water, and a lensatic compass with a top map of the state, then I'd say you're covered. If not, MA skills won't start a fire when you're wet and cold and your car won't go.

The things I do in my life to 'protect myself' are a lot more potentially useful than my growing ability to throw a punch correctly. My wife and I have guns and we know how to use them and when. We can clear the rooms in our house. We have multiple escape routes. Emergency supplies. We have rally points to meet up with each other if we're seperated by circumstances during an emergency, natural or man-made.

We have fungible assets where we can get at them for barter or trade, we have caches of goods in other locations we can reach. We have CPR skills, we have first-aid kits that include animal medications that can be used on humans in emergencies. We can suture a wound, perform minor surgery. We have Wills, we have durable power of attorney's and DNRS and Living Wills on file in a variety of locations.

There are a thousand and one things that life is going to throw at you in the next twenty years, and ninjas are low on the list of probabilities.

What is the point? The point is, most people don't want to even consider the things that are MOST LIKELY to kill them, so they train to protect themselves against things that probably won't. Hey, I'm hip. I am way overweight and don't eat food that I know is good for me. Look at me, living on the edge.

Knowing twenty-seven ways to kill a man with one punch - or knowing how to make blood stop gushing from a compound fracture when you fall down the steps one morning. You tell me which one is 'real world'.

That's "the point."

My 2 cents...

I will say that the arts have taught me ways to better my awareness. I've probably avoided things that I normally would have walked right into, had I never trained. Now, I wouldn't say that I'm paranoid, thats not the case at all. But, compared to what I see from others when I'm out, I think I'm less of a statistic.

As for fighting Ninjas in the parking lot....I think it todays world, the odds of someone getting attacked are higher. Having an emergency kit in the truck doesnt require martial arts skills. Thats just a common sense thing. My wife has one, so does my dad, and neither of them train.

I think the point KT was trying to make was....if someone is going to invest the time in training for SD, then make damn sure that you take the training seriously, test what you're doing, so when you need it, you know you can make it work, and that the system you're training in, is teaching you practical skills.

 

[MJS]

Very solid point. They are martial arts. In that respect training is much like the pursuit of any art -- my classical guitar teacher once quoted a Chinese proverb to me: Neglect your art for one day; it will neglect you for two. Training is an exercise in reinventing and improving myself. One of the things that appealed to me about Asian martial arts (My background is Shotokan and Hapkido) is the repetition. There is something inherently noble and at the same time humbling in throwing thousands and thousands of kicks. Why do I have a good front kick? Because I've thrown a few hundred thousand of them. Why do I play guitar well? Because I practiced my scales.

Simply put: Being a good artist is hard work.

Fighting? Well, I've said this before. I know a bunch of different ways to screw up someone's day if I have to. It doesn't take a dan to grab a bad guy by his jewels and not let go. My need to be a better fighter is not what brings me back.

Great points! See, I take this as combining both the martial and the art side of it. That is the difference. You're training to make yourself better and at the same time, refining your skills. I take that, as I said, as a mix of both. Compared to one that may train, but looks to the art only to solve all the problems they may face.

Thanks for starting this thread.

You're welcome. And thank you for contributing.

 

[MJS]

Actually I feel too much emphasis is put on the art side.......it dilutes and waters down the nature of thing itself. Too much 'art' turns function in to a pretty dance.....which is fine if that is all someone is interested in, but we need to be honest with the nature of what it is we are doing.

You're right, and if we look at things that are taught today, the way teaching is done, we see alot of watered down stuff. And yes, if that is what someone wants, fine, but the other side should be taught to those that want the martial.

 

[MJS]

It's interesting that this has become some sort of adversarial debate.

I have no interest in turning my MA training into any kind of dance. At my dojo, we learn self-defense. We also learn traditional aspects of karate that our founder felt were important, such as breathing techniques, clearing the mind to relax, stretching, and we do warm-up exercises that have nothing to do with MA per se.

I have also stated that I get a lot out of MA training besides just the self-defense aspect, including self-respect, discipline, etc, etc. None of these things are 'dancing'.

Although I have no mentioned it, I also get other benefits from MA training, including better balance, endurance, and patience. Again, none of it is dancing.

However, I'm aware of MA centers where they do their kata to music, and you may be right - it might be turning MA into 'dance'.

So let me as you this. So what? In what way does that harm you? If the people teaching it like it, and the people taking it like it, this harms you how, exactly? Do you honestly think that there are a cadre of 'dancing' martial arts students out there trying to 'take away' your MA and force you to learn things their way?

Last I heard, people were allowed to make their own choices about training.

I do not understand why this has to be adversarial. If you think MA consists of punching, blocking, kicking, and general mayhem, have at it. If somebody else wants to do something else with it, so what?

How does it hurt you? It hurts you because it seems that if 99% of the schools are teaching what the masses want...watered down stuff, focusing more on the art, then those that want something else are being cheated. Now you could counter that by saying to just leave the school. And of course thats a valid answer, but as I said, if the schools are teaching more art than martial, those that want the martial are not getting it.

 

[MJS]

Comments like the following

"You will learn the point when life has kicked you dead square in the *** for the next 20 years, which it will."

are condescending and imply that your position on this matter is objectively correct and that those of us that disagree do so because of a lack of life experience. You may not have intended it to read that way, but it does. Some of us that view this matter differently are not young kids, and in fact have more than 20 years experience getting kicked in many place due to involvement in the martial arts for that length of time or longer.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that was thinking this.

As for the OPs question. I train primarily to develop and maintain my fighting skills and physical fitness. I teach because I love to watch a student grow and develop as an athlete. I continue because it is what I have loved doing for the last 25 years, the majoraty of my long term friends are fellow martial artists, and I enjoy what I do. It is still fun.
I dislike a huge range of the trappings of the TMA's and nearly everything involved with the orgs but I love throwing on the gear and training. Wehn that changes I'll find a different way to spend my time.

Just my view
Mark

Thanks for your input.

 

[MJS]

I think people find different reasons to train. Whether it is for self defense, personal protection, fitness, confidence, etc. All of them can be good each in their own way.

Now in IRT it is all about the martial! That is what we do! We prepare for conflict and personal protection. The other things like confidence, self awareness or realization and enlightenment, fitness and combative conditioning just happen as a by product of intense rigorous martial training. (and they do happen to a great degree

)

I love it when someone else says what I was trying to say all along! Brian you hit the nail on the head!! The primary goal is martial, and the other stuff gained from it, is the byproduct. ie: fitness is not my primary goal, but I get it. Making friends is not my primary goal, but I'm very thankful for the ones that I've made. Whats interesting about that, is while I've made many friends, the close ones are usually the ones that share the same goals as I, in training. Go figure.

So, with those other things, the art, IMO, is for me, a byproduct.

 

[AJPerry]

I fell in love with the idea of being a Martial Artist when watching old b-grade kung-fu movies like Dragon Lord with Jackie Chan.

When I grew up I realised most of the movie moves are crap in an actual fight but loved the new sense of power, confidence and control.

I grew up in NZ and was the smallest guy in class at 13yo when some of the Maori and Islander guys were 6'2" and 200lbs, so I learnt to talk my way out of fights. Back then that was a skill that got me through school.

Nowdays I find it a skill that keeps me out of court. I love taining and will fight when needed (I find my tolerence of idiots is shrinking with age) but in todays world you can't just thump people and walk away. Too many people either seek revenge with a gun, knife or a lawyer. I will do what I can to stay out of trouble because I don't want my life/freedom ruined by some idiot.

It's a crazy world where a drunk guy can start a fight and then sue you because he lost it.

I think the confidence of being a trained fighter helps keep you calm under pressure and increases your ability/awareness to just move around potential conflict.

 

[MJS]

Just wanted to bump this back up, as some recent threads sparked another idea for this thread.

If we look at some of the things that the arts teach us, we often hear that confidence is one of the things. Now, part of being confident, IMO, is having some faith in yourself, and not being afraid. This is not to be mistaken with being cocky. Cocky is the macho, tough guy, my **** doesnt stink attitude, possibly attributed to a bully.

So, during a confrontation, say its just a verbal argument, would it be wrong of the martial artist to stand up for themselves, and not have to cower? Or does that make the student a tough guy?

I'm not picking on this person, but Bill made this post in another thread, so I thought this was a pretty good example of the point I'm trying to make.

I also will seek the solution least likely to get me injured or killed in any kind of confrontation, and I call that 'self-defense'. If I can end a confrontation by walking away from it, I will. I have no place in a pecking order or face to maintain among fellow males. My safety means more to me that punching someone who calls me a name or threatens me.

That does not mean I will not fight. It just means I recognize that fighting is inherently dangerous, and only a short step from 'life-threatening', so avoiding it is part and parcel of self-defense. If I do not see any other way to end a dangerous confrontation, I will fight, and like your source, I'll fight all out until the threat is ended.

Now, I've said myself that I think trying to walk away or talk your way out is a good thing. But is that always the best thing? If someone wants to think you're a whimp for walking away, then so be it. You're the better man. However, in this real life situation that happened to me:

I think back to that day I was walking thru my condo complex with my dog, and a car with 2 guys passed by slowly. I exchanged glances with the passenger, and honestly thought that he may have been someone I knew, but didn't recognize right away. I kept walking but apparently my look pissed him off, so he gets out and asks me if I have a ****ing problem. I didn't cower, I didn't apologize, because I didn't do anything wrong...I was minding my own business. So I stood my ground, replied "No" to him, and continued to look at him. He then went on his way. However, if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness.

I didn't apologize, I didn't hang my head in fear, I didn't say anything more than "No" to the question that was asked of me, and I didn't attempt to talk my way out of anything. So, does that make me, or anyone else in a similar situation, less of a martial artist, because I was confident in myself?

I think that this question of confidence relates to the martial and art comparison.

​

 

[Flying Crane]

I have been training now for long enough that I do not remember what life was like without it. I enjoy it, so I keep doing it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Now that I've had a chance to read thru more of the discussion, I wanna change my answer: It's the ninjas. Damn infestation of the buggers where I grew up, and I needed to know how to deal with them. Every damn day I had to literally put my life on the line just walking to grade school.

repressed memories. yeah, it's all coming back to me now...

 

[just2kicku]

Just wanted to bump this back up, as some recent threads sparked another idea for this thread.

If we look at some of the things that the arts teach us, we often hear that confidence is one of the things. Now, part of being confident, IMO, is having some faith in yourself, and not being afraid. This is not to be mistaken with being cocky. Cocky is the macho, tough guy, my **** doesnt stink attitude, possibly attributed to a bully.

So, during a confrontation, say its just a verbal argument, would it be wrong of the martial artist to stand up for themselves, and not have to cower? Or does that make the student a tough guy?

I'm not picking on this person, but Bill made this post in another thread, so I thought this was a pretty good example of the point I'm trying to make.



Now, I've said myself that I think trying to walk away or talk your way out is a good thing. But is that always the best thing? If someone wants to think you're a whimp for walking away, then so be it. You're the better man. However, in this real life situation that happened to me:



I didn't apologize, I didn't hang my head in fear, I didn't say anything more than "No" to the question that was asked of me, and I didn't attempt to talk my way out of anything. So, does that make me, or anyone else in a similar situation, less of a martial artist, because I was confident in myself?

I think that this question of confidence relates to the martial and art comparison.

In short Mike, NO, it does not make you less of a martial artist.

I think that confidence is built up over time in the arts by the martial part of it. Take a Kajukenbo, TKD, Wing Chun or any other art, take away the sparring, techniques and pinians (katas), the martial part of it, and just strecth and do excersises for months, And I'd be willing to bet that there is no confidence built up by the students and that they would all quit because a gym is cheaper.

Confidence is knowing you could have destroyed those guys should the schizznizzle hit the fan. (martial part). Saying NO and not looking afraid or like a victim is the (Art) part.

Confidence is knowing. Macho, tough guy or bully is someone that feels they have something to prove or someone to impress. Talk is cheap until you get into my personal space. Then, hopefully your mouth doesn't write checks that your *** can't cash.

And like Flying Crane said, Those damn ninjas really are everywhere.:jediduel:

 

[shihansmurf]

Just wanted to bump this back up, as some recent threads sparked another idea for this thread.

If we look at some of the things that the arts teach us, we often hear that confidence is one of the things. Now, part of being confident, IMO, is having some faith in yourself, and not being afraid. This is not to be mistaken with being cocky. Cocky is the macho, tough guy, my **** doesnt stink attitude, possibly attributed to a bully.

So, during a confrontation, say its just a verbal argument, would it be wrong of the martial artist to stand up for themselves, and not have to cower? Or does that make the student a tough guy?

I'm not picking on this person, but Bill made this post in another thread, so I thought this was a pretty good example of the point I'm trying to make.



Now, I've said myself that I think trying to walk away or talk your way out is a good thing. But is that always the best thing? If someone wants to think you're a whimp for walking away, then so be it. You're the better man. However, in this real life situation that happened to me:



I didn't apologize, I didn't hang my head in fear, I didn't say anything more than "No" to the question that was asked of me, and I didn't attempt to talk my way out of anything. So, does that make me, or anyone else in a similar situation, less of a martial artist, because I was confident in myself?

I think that this question of confidence relates to the martial and art comparison.

I think you handled this situation well. While I understand that avoidance of conflict is important, I don't think that it makes us bad martial artists or bad people to refuse to be bullied or intimidated to avoid a fight. In point of fact I think that is actually a form of weakness and cowardice that encourages these sorts of things to continue. If you had shown the classic victim responses, then there is a damn good chance that it would have encouraged your aggressor to escalate the encounter.

I know that viewing any sort of assertive or aggressive response to this sort of behavior is viewed negatively by many in the martial arts world, and I don't want to come across as the Bad Guy Sensei from the Karate Kid movies, but the fact is that we are underneath it all fighters. When a violent situation occurs the ability to fight is one of a menu of choices at our disposal, and on many of those occasions it is the proper choice. I've heard this quote from so many sources that I can't properly attribute it but "Violence is rarely the right answer, but when it is it is the only answer."

By deciding to become skilled in a fighting art you decided to give yourself the choice to not be forced to have to back down form situations like that, or to live a life controlled by fear of violent confrontations or the threat thereof. Don't be ashamed or embarrassed of making that choice.

Mark

 

[jarrod]

i train so i can crush my enemies, see them driven before me, & hear the lamentations of their women.

jf

 

[just2kicku]

i train so i can crush my enemies, see them driven before me, & hear the lamentations of their women.

Jf

yeaaah!!!

 

[Omar B]

i train so i can crush my enemies, see them driven before me, & hear the lamentations of their women.

jf

But really, what is best in life?

 

[MJS]

In short Mike, NO, it does not make you less of a martial artist.

I think that confidence is built up over time in the arts by the martial part of it. Take a Kajukenbo, TKD, Wing Chun or any other art, take away the sparring, techniques and pinians (katas), the martial part of it, and just strecth and do excersises for months, And I'd be willing to bet that there is no confidence built up by the students and that they would all quit because a gym is cheaper.

Confidence is knowing you could have destroyed those guys should the schizznizzle hit the fan. (martial part). Saying NO and not looking afraid or like a victim is the (Art) part.

Confidence is knowing. Macho, tough guy or bully is someone that feels they have something to prove or someone to impress. Talk is cheap until you get into my personal space. Then, hopefully your mouth doesn't write checks that your *** can't cash.

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't just speaking of myself in that post, but anyone who puts SD on a higher level than backing down and assuming that if we do, all will be ok. Personally, I know what type of a person I am, which is not a bully, troublemaker, etc, so I'm not really concerned as to what someone thinks I am, because of a post. Personally, I think its pretty funny, well maybe not too funny, when someone thinks that you're a bully because you dont backdown to a bully, a punk trying to intimidate you, rob you, etc.

And like Flying Crane said, Those damn ninjas really are everywhere.:jediduel:

Oh ****...I got one standing over my shoulder as I type this! LOL!