There Is More To It Than Fighting

[sgtmac_46]

You will learn the point when life has kicked you dead square in the *** for the next 20 years, which it will.

Evaluate your life. Which is more likely - getting attacked by ninjas and using your MA skills to defend yourself, or having your car break down and needing to protect yourself from the elements?

If the trunk of your car has a wind-up radio, a lighter, a mirror, a first-aid kit, a sleeping bag, a gallon of bottled water, and a lensatic compass with a top map of the state, then I'd say you're covered. If not, MA skills won't start a fire when you're wet and cold and your car won't go.

The things I do in my life to 'protect myself' are a lot more potentially useful than my growing ability to throw a punch correctly. My wife and I have guns and we know how to use them and when. We can clear the rooms in our house. We have multiple escape routes. Emergency supplies. We have rally points to meet up with each other if we're seperated by circumstances during an emergency, natural or man-made.

We have fungible assets where we can get at them for barter or trade, we have caches of goods in other locations we can reach. We have CPR skills, we have first-aid kits that include animal medications that can be used on humans in emergencies. We can suture a wound, perform minor surgery. We have Wills, we have durable power of attorney's and DNRS and Living Wills on file in a variety of locations.

There are a thousand and one things that life is going to throw at you in the next twenty years, and ninjas are low on the list of probabilities.

What is the point? The point is, most people don't want to even consider the things that are MOST LIKELY to kill them, so they train to protect themselves against things that probably won't. Hey, I'm hip. I am way overweight and don't eat food that I know is good for me. Look at me, living on the edge.

Knowing twenty-seven ways to kill a man with one punch - or knowing how to make blood stop gushing from a compound fracture when you fall down the steps one morning. You tell me which one is 'real world'.

That's "the point."

My 2 cents...

The assumption that proper focus on martial ability somehow waters down your ability to deal with those other aspects is pretty erroneous.

The question is what should more emphasis be placed on the 'Martial' or the 'Art'......and focusing on the 'Art' isn't going to help you change a tire either.

As to those 'ninja', I haven't ran in to too many of them, but I have been a cop for 12 years and ran in to PLENTY of trolls and goblins fresh off the prison rec yard......and, while this doesn't apply to the average person, my 'Martial' skills DO come in to play far more often than my ability to start a camp fire (though I can play 'Survivorman' with the best of them ). My 'Martial' skills have kept me off the disabled list. But, then, law enforcement is a quasi-warrior society where physical confrontation is not considered a rarity, but a part of the job description.

I'll grant you that you are right, for the most part, about the average person having a whole list of other skills more likely to impact their well-being throughout the course of their life. In that sense it's likely that it's really irrelevant whether you're pursuing the 'Martial' or the 'Art' so long as you do it in a physically vigorous fashion......as the physical fitness aspect is far more likely to be of benefit, than any particular skill set acquired.

But, as to the initial question.....'Martial' or 'Art'.........since the root of the 'Art' is the 'Martial' aspect, anything but the root of the thing itself is a watered down version of reality.......so if we're pursuing the art, shouldn't we pursuing the true nature of the thing itself?

 

[KenpoTex]

You will learn the point when life has kicked you dead square in the *** for the next 20 years, which it will.

Evaluate your life. Which is more likely - getting attacked by ninjas and using your MA skills to defend yourself, or having your car break down and needing to protect yourself from the elements?

If the trunk of your car has a wind-up radio, a lighter, a mirror, a first-aid kit, a sleeping bag, a gallon of bottled water, and a lensatic compass with a top map of the state, then I'd say you're covered. If not, MA skills won't start a fire when you're wet and cold and your car won't go.

The things I do in my life to 'protect myself' are a lot more potentially useful than my growing ability to throw a punch correctly. My wife and I have guns and we know how to use them and when. We can clear the rooms in our house. We have multiple escape routes. Emergency supplies. We have rally points to meet up with each other if we're seperated by circumstances during an emergency, natural or man-made.

We have fungible assets where we can get at them for barter or trade, we have caches of goods in other locations we can reach. We have CPR skills, we have first-aid kits that include animal medications that can be used on humans in emergencies. We can suture a wound, perform minor surgery. We have Wills, we have durable power of attorney's and DNRS and Living Wills on file in a variety of locations.

There are a thousand and one things that life is going to throw at you in the next twenty years, and ninjas are low on the list of probabilities.

What is the point? The point is, most people don't want to even consider the things that are MOST LIKELY to kill them, so they train to protect themselves against things that probably won't. Hey, I'm hip. I am way overweight and don't eat food that I know is good for me. Look at me, living on the edge.

Knowing twenty-seven ways to kill a man with one punch - or knowing how to make blood stop gushing from a compound fracture when you fall down the steps one morning. You tell me which one is 'real world'.

That's "the point."

My 2 cents...

Yes...statistically, most of those who train in martial-arts will never have to use their skills to fight for their lives.
As to all the other stuff you listed: disaster preparedness, first-aid/trauma care, general "boy scout" stuff. You're right, it'd be nice if people knew that stuff and were a little more self-sufficient and self-reliant. Those skills are more likely to be necessary than the scary killin' moves.

I do my best to increase my skills in all of those areas when I can. I do have both first-aid and trauma gear in my vehicle and home, dito flashlights, firestarting equipment, food, and water. I also carry a gun that I'll probably [hopefully] never need.

However, I fail to see how any of that applies to this discussion on whether the "martial" or the "art" should be emphasized to a greater degree?
Unless you're suggesting that it would be better to teach people basic survival skills instead of cutesy little dance moves masquerading as efficient fighting technique?... In that case I'd agree

 

[sgtmac_46]

"Martial Arts" is a Western term. Eastern self-defense skills were generally neither martial (meaning military), nor an art.

Karate-do means empty-hand way. It is a way and not an art. It was not taught to soldiers, it was taught to peasants.

We in the West made it into a 'Martial Art' and then complain that it isn't one. It's like calling your car a plane and then being mad that it doesn't fly.

The problem is that now you're playing semantics, and attempting to draw distinctions that don't exist.

However, you do, intentional or not, point to an interesting contrast.........do martial arts lend to their adherents a certain mindset? For example, you are a Karateka......and as you point out, it was a peasants art of self-defense......does the fact of that origin grant it's adherents a certain perspective toward confrontation and violence different than, say, an art inherited from a Samurai tradition?

Would an art that evolved from a warrior culture be more bellicose in philosophy than one that evolved, as you point out, from a peasant tradition?

 

[Bruno@MT]

The Martial part is part of MA of course. But I am more into the 'art' part of MA, simply because fighting is not an immediate need for me.
To me rolling and breakfalls are the most usefull practical aspect.

The intense focus that allows me to shut out everything else to the point where I realize after training that I haven't thought once about problems or the bad day I was having. I only achieve this on the mat. Somehow I can always shut out the rest of the world the second I step on the mat.

The hours and hours of practise, repeating the same thing until mind and body are one for the purpose of the movement I am practising.

Those are the big things for which I chose MA. I do not ignore the fighting aspect. I think it is very important. But to me it is not the main reason why I am in MA.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The Martial part is part of MA of course. But I am more into the 'art' part of MA, simply because fighting is not an immediate need for me.
To me rolling and breakfalls are the most usefull practical aspect.

The intense focus that allows me to shut out everything else to the point where I realize after training that I haven't thought once about problems or the bad day I was having. I only achieve this on the mat. Somehow I can always shut out the rest of the world the second I step on the mat.

The hours and hours of practise, repeating the same thing until mind and body are one for the purpose of the movement I am practising.

Those are the big things for which I chose MA. I do not ignore the fighting aspect. I think it is very important. But to me it is not the main reason why I am in MA.

You make a good point.....the physical fitness and general development of motor skills are probably of more general use to the average person that martial ability, in the society that we live in.

 

[seasoned]

It looks like different strokes for different folks. No matter what you call it, it contains something for everyone. I have been in it long enough to have extracted all elements of my needs over the years. Young, middle aged, or old, our needs may be the same but at different degrees, for different ages. Something for everyone, sounds like a winner to me.

 

[Sukerkin]

{snip}
However, you do, intentional or not, point to an interesting contrast.........do martial arts lend to their adherents a certain mindset?

{snip}

Would an art that evolved from a warrior culture be more bellicose in philosophy than one that evolved, as you point out, from a peasant tradition?

A very interesting question, Mac.

I can tell you from my experience that Iai (despite having had "-do" tacked on the end) is very much an aggressive art.

It has 'self-defence' elements in it (for those times when your zanshin let's you down) and there is an under-current background philosophy of trying to avoid having to fight. But that philosophy is not predicated on lethal force being bad; it is more that getting into a situation (that you could have evaded) where lethal force is necessary is dangerous.

Unlike the unarmed arts I have studied there is only one outcome - once you have reached the point of having to draw sword, you kill the other swordsman - preferably as you draw. No half measures.

 

[searcher]

If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.

Thats really what you are trying to turn it into.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Quite honestly, I seek my philosophical and spiritual enlightenment outside of MA.

Martial arts (boy do I find that a loaded term) are essentially fighting methods. Dress them up with fancy philosophy if you will, but that is all that they are.

The fact that some of the founders worked in elements of religion and philosophy to their systems reflects their personal spirituality. There was a time in the west when fighting masters did not separate their practice of religion from their fighting systems. The compartmentalization of religion and spirituality from the rest of our lives is a fairly modern invention.

That said, I have long since put down spiritual roots and I integrate those into my personal martial experience, meaning that I do not instruct my Kendo students on the finer points of Catholocism or Celtic wisdom. Those things are well and fully integrated into my personal practice however, just as Shinto, Buddhism, or any other eastern religion was a part of the lives of those who practiced the various fighting systems in those regions.

So in short, when I go to class, I go to learn to fight. Meditation techniques and such are a nice and healthy bonus, but I do not need to go to a dojo to learn or practice them.

Having said all that, there are others who go in for the whole martial spiritual package. That is great, and I wholeheartedly respect that.

I see nothing wrong with it; I simply seek my spirituality in church and private prayer and meditation. Perhaps when I open my own school, I may integrate my philosophical and spiritual beliefs with my teaching. I have not even come close to crossing that particular bridge.

Daniel

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.

Thats really what you are trying to turn it into.

It's interesting that this has become some sort of adversarial debate.

I have no interest in turning my MA training into any kind of dance. At my dojo, we learn self-defense. We also learn traditional aspects of karate that our founder felt were important, such as breathing techniques, clearing the mind to relax, stretching, and we do warm-up exercises that have nothing to do with MA per se.

I have also stated that I get a lot out of MA training besides just the self-defense aspect, including self-respect, discipline, etc, etc. None of these things are 'dancing'.

Although I have no mentioned it, I also get other benefits from MA training, including better balance, endurance, and patience. Again, none of it is dancing.

However, I'm aware of MA centers where they do their kata to music, and you may be right - it might be turning MA into 'dance'.

So let me as you this. So what? In what way does that harm you? If the people teaching it like it, and the people taking it like it, this harms you how, exactly? Do you honestly think that there are a cadre of 'dancing' martial arts students out there trying to 'take away' your MA and force you to learn things their way?

Last I heard, people were allowed to make their own choices about training.

I do not understand why this has to be adversarial. If you think MA consists of punching, blocking, kicking, and general mayhem, have at it. If somebody else wants to do something else with it, so what?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"Martial Arts" is a Western term. Eastern self-defense skills were generally neither martial (meaning military), nor an art.

I must disagree somewhat here. Some fighting systems were indeed for general self defense with no military background, but others were most definitely part of the military. Peasants and commoners were not swordsmen. Kenjutsu was indeed a military art, and jujutsu, taijutsu, and other unarmed fighting techniques were most definitely a part of military training and were taught in a way that they had martial application.

Also, the term 'jutsu' can be translated as 'art'. I realize that Japanese arts comprise only a part of what we in the west consider 'martial arts' but martial arts in the west post WWII did come partly through Japan, particularly in the US.

Yes, martial arts is a western term. And honestly, I do not care for it. Not because I find anything inherently wrong with it, but because of the very subjective interpretation of the word 'art'. Westerners tend to associate the word 'art' with the fine arts (music, painting, sculpture) and the performing arts (theatre, dance, opera), whereas the 'art' implied by jutsu in Japan is more along the lines of 'skill' art. Such as when we say that 'there is an art' to doing something, such as driving a race car, blacksmithing, tailoring, or cooking.

But as soon as the word 'art' is used in a general context, it becomes 'art' in the fine arts sense. Adding martial to it only confuses things, as modern western culture has not been 'martial' in centuries.

Karate-do means empty-hand way. It is a way and not an art. It was not taught to soldiers, it was taught to peasants.

Actually, Karate-do was taught by Funakoshi to his students in the twentieth century, who may or may not have been peasants. Prior to Funakashi, it was simply karate, and it was China Hand. Funakoshi petitioned to change the kanji to empty hand. So far as I know, karate was practiced by the common folk, but it was in no means a 'way'. The whole 'do' concept was necesitated by changes in Japanese law following the Meiji restoration.

We in the West made it into a 'Martial Art' and then complain that it isn't one. It's like calling your car a plane and then being mad that it doesn't fly.

Taekwondo was developed in the Korean military and is most definitely 'martial' in its origin. Jujutsu, kenjutsu, taijutsu, kyujutsu, and the many other jutsus that one can learn have martial origins as well; those samurai were not exactly a citizen militia and those who practiced the arts associated with ninjas (I believe that they were actually called Shinobi, but I am most definitely not expert here) were certainly not practicing them in the context of citizen self defense.

As for non-Asian martial arts, Krav Maga has its origins in the IDF and any western sword style outside of sport fencing have their origins in military developement. Sport fencing is an outgrowth of civilian dueling and all three of the weapons used have their origins in dueling weapons (the modern sabre traces its origins to the Italian dueling sabre which was not a cavalry sabre).

I do agree that much of what is taught under the banner of 'martial arts' has evolved away from any martial origin. Anyone going into a typical TKD school who thinks that they're going to learn ROK hand to hand combat is in for a huge let down and modern karate is most definitely geared towards civilian SD and sport. Judo has always been a sport, though it is an outgrowth of Jujutsu, which was not, and BJJ is most definitely a sport, as is MMA.

Sorry for the lengthy response Bill. I hope I do not come across as picking at you; that is not my intent.

Daniel

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sorry for the lengthy response Bill. I hope I do not come across as picking at you; that is not my intent.

I stand corrected, thanks! My understanding was that prior to Funakoshi, various 'te's were descended in one manner or another from Southern Chinese Boxing or they were indigenous to Okinawa. Teaching karate was banned and had to be done in secret, according to Funikoshi. However, I wasn't thinking about other systems outside Okinawa, you're right. Thanks!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.

Essentially, if one does not want to learn to fight, they can gain all of the benefits associated with the martial arts in other venues, dance being one of them, far more effectively and likely with much less expense.

Edit: In fact, I daresay that the average proficient ballet dancer is likely better conditioned than the average MA hobbyist and likely has kept more money in their wallet in doing so.

Thats really what you are trying to turn it into.

I do not believe that that is the case with those who gain other bennefits from MA outside of fighting. I think that it is more accurate to say that many want to turn it into sport.

I am a firm believer that there are a lot of non fighting benefits to be had in MA. But I am also a firm believer that the primary reason to learn an MA is to learn to fight; fight to defend one's self, fight to win competition, or fight for the sake of learning the system.

But fighting is the core of a martial art, and I do agree with you that a good number of people lose sight of that. Probably not helped by Dojo-Daycare.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I stand corrected, thanks! My understanding was that prior to Funakoshi, various 'te's were descended in one manner or another from Southern Chinese Boxing or they were indigenous to Okinawa.

That is my understanding as well, though I admit that I am not particularly well versed in the history of the individual te's outside of Shotokan or Kyoshukin. I'll have to do something about that!

Teaching karate was banned and had to be done in secret, according to Funikoshi.

That was also the case with indigenous Korean Arts. Japan certainly had very specific ideas of how life was to be lived in the territories she controled.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I do not understand why this has to be adversarial. If you think MA consists of punching, blocking, kicking, and general mayhem, have at it. If somebody else wants to do something else with it, so what?

Absolutely!

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.

Thats really what you are trying to turn it into.

I agree, When we go to class we learn to punch, kick, throw and hurt someone else. I've said before, philosophies aside, we train to fight.
There are obvious health aspects to the martial arts, but I think they are secondary to learning to fight.

On the first day of class we do not teach students to meditate. We teach them to strike or block, then we teach power in those strikes and blocks. We do not teach them to sit crossed legged for hours and chant. Nor do we teach them to spin on there toes or the other fancy stuff that I can't even spell, that they would do in a dance class.

 

[Bruno@MT]

If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.
Thats really what you are trying to turn it into.

I really hate it if people mention the 'dance' argument because it introduces the false premise that something can only be 1 thing, or that things are either black or white.

You wear clothes, right?
But apart from their prime function, you probably chose them to look good too. If you only cared for function, you could just wear a loincloth or a burlap sack with holes in.

Or take Japanese tea ceremony. You don't really think that the purpose of a lifetime of dedication to tea ceremony is just about making a good cuppa, do you?

I take the fighting aspect of my martial art (Genbukan ninpo) very seriously. But fighting is not an immediate need, so I don't mind the fact that it takes longer to be useful for self defense than e.g Boxing.
Also, the other aspects like rolling and breakfalls are a vital aspect of fighting scenarios. The fact that they can be extremely useful outside a fighting scenario does not mean that they have no place in a martial art.

I have done a lot of sports in my life already, but martial arts is the only thing that also makes me relax and gives me peace of mind. So I don't see why I should take up dancing (don't like dancing btw) just because you think that fighting is the one and only purpose of a martial art. That fact that it is more than just fighting to me does not diminish the fighting aspect. It just means that fighting is not its only purpose for me.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I do not believe that that is the case with those who gain other bennefits from MA outside of fighting. I think that it is more accurate to say that many want to turn it into sport.

I am a firm believer that there are a lot of non fighting benefits to be had in MA. But I am also a firm believer that the primary reason to learn an MA is to learn to fight; fight to defend one's self, fight to win competition, or fight for the sake of learning the system.

But fighting is the core of a martial art, and I do agree with you that a good number of people lose sight of that. Probably not helped by Dojo-Daycare.

Daniel

Exactly. Though in my case, the goal is not to learn to fight as soon as possible.

A year of boxing will make you a much better fighter than the average Joe.
A year of ninpo, if you apply yourself, will make you adept at rolling, tai-sabaki, and basic block / counter, though the last much less than a boxer.

Since I have no pressing need to learn to fight asap, I can practise ninpo, and enjoy all the other aspects it has to me too in the time it takes for me to reach the point where it becomes useful enough for self defense in realistic scenarios.

 

[Guardian]

I have it. Dude, there's nothing printed with Batman, Superman, Green Lantern or Flash that I don't have. I'm 28 and still at the comic shop every Tuesday.

Nothing wrong with that Omar, I'm 48 and still love to read comic books.

Green Lantern was cool, I like DC, but, my favorites were Iron Man and Thor.

Sorry back to topic, spiritual, calming side effects.

 

[shihansmurf]

It's interesting that this has become some sort of adversarial debate.

I have no interest in turning my MA training into any kind of dance. At my dojo, we learn self-defense. We also learn traditional aspects of karate that our founder felt were important, such as breathing techniques, clearing the mind to relax, stretching, and we do warm-up exercises that have nothing to do with MA per se.

I have also stated that I get a lot out of MA training besides just the self-defense aspect, including self-respect, discipline, etc, etc. None of these things are 'dancing'.

Although I have no mentioned it, I also get other benefits from MA training, including better balance, endurance, and patience. Again, none of it is dancing.

However, I'm aware of MA centers where they do their kata to music, and you may be right - it might be turning MA into 'dance'.

So let me as you this. So what? In what way does that harm you? If the people teaching it like it, and the people taking it like it, this harms you how, exactly? Do you honestly think that there are a cadre of 'dancing' martial arts students out there trying to 'take away' your MA and force you to learn things their way?

Last I heard, people were allowed to make their own choices about training.

I do not understand why this has to be adversarial. If you think MA consists of punching, blocking, kicking, and general mayhem, have at it. If somebody else wants to do something else with it, so what?

Comments like the following

"You will learn the point when life has kicked you dead square in the *** for the next 20 years, which it will."

are condescending and imply that your position on this matter is objectively correct and that those of us that disagree do so because of a lack of life experience. You may not have intended it to read that way, but it does. Some of us that view this matter differently are not young kids, and in fact have more than 20 years experience getting kicked in many place due to involvement in the martial arts for that length of time or longer.

On a similar note things like this..
"If you don't want to learn to fight, then take up dance people.",

from searcher are equally dismissive of the opposite mindset.

Irrespective of my personal views, and I happen to side more with searcher on this topic, I think it is disingenuous to make a comment that is divisive and, rather accidentally or by design condescending, to people that don't share your view then be surprised when it turn the thread into a debate.

The way I teach my students is similar to the way you describe your school. I happen to focus on the jutsu side of things a lot more than the do side. I believe that the arts can provide a range of benefits for those that train but the ultimate aim of what we do is the development of fighting skills. I am always amazed at the number of people I encounter that take up a fighting art but don't want the focus to be on fighting.

Nonetheless, train in the manner that you wish, just understand that the way you train, and your reasons for doing so are not inherently superior to anyone else's no matter how ling life has been kicking you in the ***.

As for the OPs question. I train primarily to develop and maintain my fighting skills and physical fitness. I teach because I love to watch a student grow and develop as an athlete. I continue because it is what I have loved doing for the last 25 years, the majoraty of my long term friends are fellow martial artists, and I enjoy what I do. It is still fun.
I dislike a huge range of the trappings of the TMA's and nearly everything involved with the orgs but I love throwing on the gear and training. Wehn that changes I'll find a different way to spend my time.

Just my view
Mark