There are no blocks in Karate

[Paul_D]

The actual use of "blocks". If only I had have been taught this when I did Karate.

 

[Danny T]

When I first learn Shotokan as a teenager we spent more time doing these kind of drills than we did Kata. They were not just like these but similar. Some were flow type similar to this and others were against actual striking or grabbing attacks. When returning to kata work the instructor/s would ask us to find the drill moves within the kata we were practicing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is most unfortunate that this sort of knowledge is esoteric; it should be commonly taught and understood. I feel badly that everyone learning karate isn't given access to this kind of information and experience.

 

[elder999]

It is most unfortunate that this sort of knowledge is esoteric; it should be commonly taught and understood. I feel badly that everyone learning karate isn't given access to this kind of information and experience.

It's just as well that this sort of knowledge remains esoteric-it would be nice if it were still as uncommon and misunderstood as it was when I was a teenager.* I feel an advantage that not everyone learning karate is given access to this kind of information and experience......just sayin'

*it was taught by a few, back in the 70's, but the general knowledge is far more disseminated nowadays....

 

[hoshin1600]

Personally I feel Abernathy is getting wayyyyy to much air time. I never heard of him until a few people here mentioned his name. I much prefer to get my info from the Okinawans. If the oki's call it jodan uke, gedan barai, kake uchi or wa uke, then that's what it is. I wonder were Abernathy learned what he is showing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Personally I feel Abernathy is getting wayyyyy to much air time. I never heard of him until a few people here mentioned his name. I much prefer to get my info from the Okinawans. If the oki's call it jodan uke, gedan barai, kake uchi or wa uke, then that's what it is. I wonder were Abernathy learned what he is showing.

I don't know anything about him and am not qualified to say anything about him. What he demonstrates in the video shown in this thread looks like pretty standard application where I am training; we take it further than that and I hope more smoothly, but that's not a dig on Mr. Abernathy. He was giving a seminar and apparently needed to move quickly through the material.

We use the terms you stated for the most part, but I'm OK if a Jodan Uke is called a cheese sammich as long as it works when applied.

Now, as to blocks not being blocks, IMHO, sometimes they are indeed blocks, as advertised. Simple kick punch block does work. It's just that there is so much more available.

It's funny. I've learned many ways to get someone to release a collar grab (for example), but the simple expedient of smashing the assailant in the face with a closed fist works too... That doesn't mean all the other ways aren't fun to learn and practice and by golly, they work too...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's just as well that this sort of knowledge remains esoteric-it would be nice if it were still as uncommon and misunderstood as it was when I was a teenager.* I feel an advantage that not everyone learning karate is given access to this kind of information and experience......just sayin'

*it was taught by a few, back in the 70's, but the general knowledge is far more disseminated nowadays....

For me, I find it somewhat sad because I feel that students are being cheated by instructors who are not themselves deeply immersed in their art, or so it seems to me.

I also note that much of this sort of thing is sneeringly dismissed by those who laugh at the 'secrets' of karate or feel that simple straightforward techniques are all that will work 'in the street' because either they were not taught by competent instructors or they were but never managed to make it work for themselves.

Bunkai is such an overused and misused term, I hesitate to employ it in this thread. But just considering that every move in every kata contains applications upon applications, from the subtle to the obvious, and I have yet to challenge one of my sensei to show me how it works and they do not in fact drop me like a bad habit when showing me. It works, when done correctly by someone who understands it. Will it work 'in the street'? You bet your sweet bippy.

 

[Tez3]

Personally I feel Abernathy is getting wayyyyy to much air time. I never heard of him until a few people here mentioned his name. I much prefer to get my info from the Okinawans. If the oki's call it jodan uke, gedan barai, kake uchi or wa uke, then that's what it is. I wonder were Abernathy learned what he is showing.

Oh dear, is that the sound sour grapes make I wonder if they were to be heard?
Isn't calling Okinawans 'okis' more than a little disrespectful?
If you wonder where Iain 'learned' all this why don't you ask him? (Btw his name is Iain Abernethy) email him and ask him [email protected] ( from his website) or go onto his forum. He is a very open, honest martial artist, doesn't BS nor stand for it. he has a great sense of humour so you'll be fine.
Forums | Iain Abernethy

 

[elder999]

For me, I find it somewhat sad because I feel that students are being cheated by instructors who are not themselves deeply immersed in their art, or so it seems to me.

The instructors are deeply immersed in what they were taught.


Sometimes, a "block" is really a strike against whatever limb is being used as a weapon.

It's worth noting, though, that the Japanese word being used for "block" here means "to receive."

 

[hoshin1600]

Oh dear, is that the sound sour grapes make I wonder if they were to be heard?
Isn't calling Okinawans 'okis' more than a little disrespectful?
If you wonder where Iain 'learned' all this why don't you ask him? (Btw his name is Iain Abernethy) email him and ask him [email protected] ( from his website) or go onto his forum. He is a very open, honest martial artist, doesn't BS nor stand for it. he has a great sense of humour so you'll be fine.
Forums | Iain Abernethy

Thank you Tez for pointing out my use of "Oki's". That is something I picked up from my seniors and it has worked it's way into my vocabulary. I never thought about it before. It may be that if you are on the inside of the group it's ok but outside it's not. I am not sure. I find no offense if I were to be called a yank or Yankee. Not sure about calling others a brit or an aussie. But I would never use the term Jap, too many negative connotations from WWII. So yeah maybe I should not use oki.

Sour grapes. ...not ment to be. I have just heard his name used so many times on this Web sight that one might think he was doing something revolutionary. Watching the clip it's the same thing taught from day one in Uechi-ryu and the same concepts I got from Morio Higaonna in the early 90's so it's nothing new and nothing special. What bothers me is the underlying belief that the real karate was with held and kept secret from the non Asians. Is there some bias yeah but to think over the last 50 or 60 years those teachers who taught non Asians and treated them like family were really only teaching baby karate, I just don't buy it. I would say some Americans who studied for a short time who new nothing came home and promoted themselves to great grand master is more likely.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The instructors are deeply immersed in what they were taught.


Sometimes, a "block" is really a strike against whatever limb is being used as a weapon.

It's worth noting, though, that the Japanese word being used for "block" here means "to receive."

OK, I was trying to avoid saying "Instructors who don't know what they are doing," and I'm sorry, I'm not suddenly highly qualified myself, but I have gotten to where I can tell when a senior black belt has no clue what it is they are teaching and there are a lot of them.

Yes, a block can be a strike. A strike can be a block. I think many of are aware of that. And as the OP opined, a something described as a block (or an uke if you wish to use the Japanese term and its meaning) can be applied in any number of ways. I agree. Not arguing.

 

[Tez3]

Thank you Tez for pointing out my use of "Oki's". That is something I picked up from my seniors and it has worked it's way into my vocabulary. I never thought about it before. It may be that if you are on the inside of the group it's ok but outside it's not. I am not sure. I find no offense if I were to be called a yank or Yankee. Not sure about calling others a brit or an aussie. But I would never use the term Jap, too many negative connotations from WWII. So yeah maybe I should not use oki.

Sour grapes. ...not ment to be. I have just heard his name used so many times on this Web sight that one might think he was doing something revolutionary. Watching the clip it's the same thing taught from day one in Uechi-ryu and the same concepts I got from Morio Higaonna in the early 90's so it's nothing new and nothing special. What bothers me is the underlying belief that the real karate was with held and kept secret from the non Asians. Is there some bias yeah but to think over the last 50 or 60 years those teachers who taught non Asians and treated them like family were really only teaching baby karate, I just don't buy it. I would say some Americans who studied for a short time who new nothing came home and promoted themselves to great grand master is more likely.

I know Iain, not well but enough to know he's a very self effacing man who does not go around saying that there are 'secret' moves in karate that were kept from some people. what he and many others are saying is that there are forgotten and neglected techniques and if you see how many places are teaching kata without any Bunkai or without any meaning to them other than 'we've always done kata' then you will understand. Ask some people what kata is for and they will say things like 'to help your breathing', 'it helps your balance' 'because that's what we do' as they just go through the moves totally unaware there are self defence techniques in the kata that have been forgotten.
As for Americans as you say coming home after training a short time, I can't say, I don't know anything about it. In the UK we had Japanese instructors who came over to teach their styles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kung fu person looking from the outside. Much of what I saw in that video looks very similar to things I've seen in Kung fu. All of what he was doing requires a strong grip.

 

[drop bear]

So how do they stop punches?

 

[JowGaWolf]

So how do they stop punches?

I don't know about karate, but in some martial arts they say that there are no blocks because they attack punches and kicks. To help students focus on the concept of attacking punches and kicks, the instructor will say their are no blocks. In Jow Ga we have the same mentality. If someone punches at me then I'm either going to move out the way, redirect, absorb (let the attack hit me), or defend against the attack by attacking the arm or leg that is attacking me.

If I'm not in the position to do any of this then I'll throw a block. I only know of 1 block in Jow Ga that absorbs. Everything else is considered an attack.

 

[Paul_D]

So how do they stop punches?

Kata was designed for civilian violence, i.e self defence. That's why the kate doesn't wait until the stage where punches are begin thrown. It responds pre-emptively. The whole "wait until punches are thrown and then (try) to block them" was introduced when Japanese got hold of karate and turned it into something it wasn't.

 

[Paul_D]

If the oki's call it jodan uke, gedan barai, kake uchi or wa uke, then that's what it is. I wonder were Abernathy learned what he is showing.

The name of the techniques is not the question, it;s the application.

If you are getting your information form the Okinawans then you should know this, unless you are getting your information from Okinawan's who are teaching the children's version of karate. It was only when Itosu introduced Karate into schools that he realised he couldn't teach takedowns, throws, joint locks etc to children due to the danger. Therefore he told them these movements where "blocks", the idea they would learn the true nature of the techniques once they became adults and it became safe for them to practice joint locks etc. Unfortunately it was this children's version of karate that became popular and spread.

 

[hoshin1600]

The name of the techniques is not the question, it;s the application.

If you are getting your information form the Okinawans then you should know this, unless you are getting your information from Okinawan's who are teaching the children's version of karate. It was only when Itosu introduced Karate into schools that he realised he couldn't teach takedowns, throws, joint locks etc to children due to the danger. Therefore he told them these movements where "blocks", the idea they would learn the true nature of the techniques once they became adults and it became safe for them to practice joint locks etc. Unfortunately it was this children's version of karate that became popular and spread.

i think your a little miss guided but its not my job to try and change your mind. im glad you like the alternative applications.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in some martial arts they say that there are no blocks because they attack punches and kicks.

A block should be followed by a "wrap". This way you can disable that punching arm.

 

[RTKDCMB]

i think your a little miss guided

Are you sure he's not one of the Mr Men?