Uke = block, the misinterpretation

[Brian S]

yes you always will find more as you dig deeper. the old way to tell if some one was a master was to see if they could show you 5 or more bunkai for every movement in the old traditional kata. ( and for you who don't beleave in hiden meanings try it some time.. there are a minumum of 5 techniques for every MOVEMENT and not every series in kata..some are not exactly the same movement, but its there beleave me!)

There are even interpretations for the opening sequence. However, everyone's bunkai seem to differ. I guess what matters is what you can actually put to use.

 

[TimoS]

There are other applications,but none of them are a block

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That's from Shito ryu Seisan, which is basically the same as Goju ryu Seisan. Shorin ryu Seisan looks different, but the bunkai for this part is the same in both. I was also told by my instructor that he has on video Higaonna doing Seisan and applications for it and, no surprise, the bunkai is still the same

 

[Tez3]

There are even interpretations for the opening sequence. However, everyone's bunkai seem to differ. I guess what matters is what you can actually put to use.

I was taught there is a Bunkai for the 'ready' stance move (Joon Bee Jase/Yoi)

 

[TimoS]

I was taught there is a Bunkai for the 'ready' stance move (Joon Bee Jase/Yoi)

When Shimabukuro sensei was visiting us couple of months ago, he said that sometimes a stance is just a stance. On the other hand, my previous instructor, when he taught any real applications at all, sometimes would show an application e.g. for a ready stance that in the middle of kata Ananku. In my opinion, yes, you can find all sorts of applications via "reverse engineering", but the big question really is that are you able to use them under stress? If your applications depend on "fine mechanics", then (again IMO) they're much harder to put into use in a real situation than say, a combination of block/deflect, control and counterattack

 

[Tez3]

When Shimabukuro sensei was visiting us couple of months ago, he said that sometimes a stance is just a stance. On the other hand, my previous instructor, when he taught any real applications at all, sometimes would show an application e.g. for a ready stance that in the middle of kata Ananku. In my opinion, yes, you can find all sorts of applications via "reverse engineering", but the big question really is that are you able to use them under stress? If your applications depend on "fine mechanics", then (again IMO) they're much harder to put into use in a real situation than say, a combination of block/deflect, control and counterattack

Can I do the Yoi stance Bunkai under pressure, yes, very easily. It's a simple strike but very effective. My instructor comes from the K.I.S.S school of martial arts and uses his experience as a close protection officer and doorman as well as bing a martial artist and soldier to good effect. This man ( and here I'm very jealous though I get the benefits of it) has trained with Geoff Thompson, Mo Teague, Peter Consterdine and of course Iain Abernethy among others.

 

[exile]

In my opinion, yes, you can find all sorts of applications via "reverse engineering", but the big question really is that are you able to use them under stress? If your applications depend on "fine mechanics", then (again IMO) they're much harder to put into use in a real situation than say, a combination of block/deflect, control and counterattack

The part in bold is certainly true. We know that corresponding to the arc of the adrenaline rush in fight-or-flight reactions, there is very dramatic loss of fine motor skills. But given the history of kata, and MA forms in general, it's most unlikely that the intended applications depended on small muscle control. If you look at the kinds of bunkai proposed by people like Iain Abernethy and Rick Clark, it's clear that only large-muscle movements and coordination is required. In that sense, part of being a good application is being robust in the fact of this programmed loss of small-muscle abilities.

But beyond this, it's also true that any applications you come up with need to be tested under as realistic conditions as possible. That pre-testing will, if you do it right, sort out the effective applications from the ones which don't hold up. Since part of `holding up' is just this matter of being able work even when fine-motor abilities are lost, it more or less follows necessarily that really useful training will have to include enough potential violence to induce an adrenaline response that mimics to some degree what happens to the defender in a real, violent encounter. Otherwise, you won't really see whether the techs work in the crunch. The people who think about realistic scenario training take this aspect of things very seriously.

Can I do the Yoi stance Bunkai under pressure, yes, very easily. It's a simple strike but very effective. My instructor comes from the K.I.S.S school of martial arts and uses his experience as a close protection officer and doorman as well as bing a martial artist and soldier to good effect. This man has trained with Geoff Thompson, Mo Teague, Peter Consterdine and of course Iain Abernethy among others.

The K.I.S.S. approach is exactly what's needed to yield applications which hold up under the horrible stress of actual combat, with its loss of fine-motor skills, tunnel vision, tachycardia and all the other conditions that are biologically programmed into us in response to attacks. So far as I can see, the BCA guys that Tez mentions, and the whole BCA orientation, is probably the leading edge for this sort of kata analysis and training in the world....

...( and here I'm very jealous though I get the benefits of it)...

... but aren't you going to be going to one of Abernethy's seminars, Tez? When is that?

 

[Tez3]

The part in bold is certainly true. We know that corresponding to the arc of the adrenaline rush in fight-or-flight reactions, there is very dramatic loss of fine motor skills. But given the history of kata, and MA forms in general, it's most unlikely that the intended applications depended on small muscle control. If you look at the kinds of bunkai proposed by people like Iain Abernethy and Rick Clark, it's clear that only large-muscle movements and coordination is required. In that sense, part of being a good application is being robust in the fact of this programmed loss of small-muscle abilities.

But beyond this, it's also true that any applications you come up with need to be tested under as realistic conditions as possible. That pre-testing will, if you do it right, sort out the effective applications from the ones which don't hold up. Since part of `holding up' is just this matter of being able work even when fine-motor abilities are lost, it more or less follows necessarily that really useful training will have to include enough potential violence to induce an adrenaline response that mimics to some degree what happens to the defender in a real, violent encounter. Otherwise, you won't really see whether the techs work in the crunch. The people who think about realistic scenario training take this aspect of things very seriously.



The K.I.S.S. approach is exactly what's needed to yield applications which hold up under the horrible stress of actual combat, with its loss of fine-motor skills, tunnel vision, tachycardia and all the other conditions that are biologically programmed into us in response to attacks. So far as I can see, the BCA guys that Tez mentions, and the whole BCA orientation, is probably the leading edge for this sort of kata analysis and training in the world....


... but aren't you going to be going to one of Abernethy's seminars, Tez? When is that?

Ah yes that. Due to my usual lack of martial arts confidence I have to tell you I chickened out of going. I thought that I would be way behind everyone and be too slow to pick stuff up so I thought oh well next time. I asked my instructor about it and well due to things going on as usual I never got an answer of whether he thought I should go or not. I know it would have been good and I know I should have but I'm the only one who does TMA in the club ( apart from the kids and I teach them lol)so I have no way of judging what my TMA is like, I've been a 1st Dan for four years now and no prospect of learning anything in TSD other than from you lot here! I know ...it's pathetic of me isn't it! :waah:

 

[exile]

Ah yes that. Due to my usual lack of martial arts confidence I have to tell you I chickened out of going.

NO!! You didn't!!! Tez, that won't do at all....

I thought that I would be way behind everyone and be too slow to pick stuff up so I thought oh well next time. I asked my instructor about it and well due to things going on as usual I never got an answer of whether he thought I should go or not. I know it would have been good and I know I should have but I'm the only one who does TMA in the club ( apart from the kids and I teach them lol)so I have no way of judging what my TMA is like, I've been a 1st Dan for four years now and no prospect of learning anything in TSD other than from you lot here! I know ...it's pathetic of me isn't it! :waah:

Well,no use crying over spilled chances to train with Iain Abernethy. But really, you ought to try to go to the next one you can. Look at it this way: Abernethy does specialized seminars with very advanced practitioners. And those are basically vetted, or invited,so far as participation goes. But he also does this kind of seminar you were talking about, which would be open to experienced MAists who aren't necessarily specialists in advanced close personal protection or the like... if you apply, pay the fee, and can get in, it means that you don't already have to be an expert (or a proto-expert) in realistic kata-based CQ self-defense, because that kind of seminar will be closed to the public,so to speak.

In other words, you need to sign up for the next one you can... not just to learn what he can teach, but also to get past this reluctance to get stuck in at the `front line'—you know what I mean? Please tell me you'll try to make the next one....

 

[Brian S]

In my opinion i do not believe this is a problem.
I am a small guy both in terms of height and weight but i do no see this as a problem when it comes to deflecting energy and momentum.
If i were to attempt to absorb the energy of an attack i would agree - being bigger and stronger is an advantage however it only takes a very small amount of energy to cause an attackers punch\kick to be redirected.

In that case, it's not a block afterall.

 

[TheOriginalName]

In that case, it's not a block afterall.

I still believe that a redirection is a type of block. It is a defensive strike to the attacker that causes damage to them whilst avoiding damage.

To attempt to absorb the energy of an attack is very inefficient and will cause a significant amount of pain....
To redirect energy is almost effortless. This conserves your energy whilst setting yourself up for a counterstrike.

It has taken me several months to get my head around this concept that a block is not just a block but a "striking block". It wasn't until i was doing a Jodan Uke drill (i hope i got that spelling right...) where i was blocking anothers punches that it sunk in....mainly because he walked away with massive bruises on his arms whilst i was "relatively" bruise free.....

But then again i've only been training since april and it seems that every time my Sempai goes through Kata with me i pick up some other little piece of knowledge that makes me rethink everything.

This is why i strongly believe that to everyone the "art" is different - as it's how we each interprite what we do.

 

[Tez3]

I think we have been given a number of tools to use within kata and how we use them depends on us, I know that's simplistic though. Within your house you have a whole load of tools, gadgets and whatnot which we all use differently, I'm sure I'm not the only one who uses a knife from the dining table to undo a screw? The knife is to use for eating but it can do other things that at first, until you need it you don't always think of! I've seen a Jodan Uke being used as a forearm smash to use wrestling terms. Long time ago I was shown a Bunkai in a kata that the instructor swears is a headbutt. It was simple enough that it could have been!

Exile, my instructor is away working again leaving me with club, show etc, I've emailed him which is the only way we talk that things really can't go on like this. His usual response is that he'll leave the club and he's only trying to make everyone happy but once he's over that he will need to see that I have to be a student as well as instructor, for one thing I have older children coming up to blue and red belts and I will run out of things to teach them soon lol! New Year is as good a time as any to make a fresh start.