The X-Kans

[MJS]

As for the off topic/trolling post by ronin....well, the rules are in place. The posts been reported and will be dealt with. My intent with this thread, was to keep it bash free. If someone has something of quality to say (and many have BTW) thats fine, but if someone is here to turn this thread into a bash fest, please, go elsewhere.

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

I would like to remind everyone, that "art bashing" is not allowed.

As the rules state:

1.10.2 No Art bashing.

No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.

If you want to promote your art, then you're encouraged to do so. However, promoting your own art by bashing others is not allowed.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator

 

[Hudson69]

I think there was better quality control when they still called it ninjutsu and it was rough and tumble. When they made it all touchy feely they took a lot from it.

 

[Krevon]

Mark Lithgow posted recently on facebook that Soke said the 5th dan test could be done with three 15th dans. Thats great for someone like me who can't afford to go to Japan, but I'm afraid it'll hurt more than it helps.

 

[Chris Parker]

It's certainly changed since "Only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer the test... the scrolls say that if anyone else were to administer it, they would suffer the wrath of heaven".....

 

[kip42]

I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.

I dont understand how you can get rank from a DVD series. It seems as if foot work and stuff is hard to learn unless an instructor can correct you on the spot. I cant believe you can get 10th Dan? I thought you had to go to Japan to get 5th?

 

[Sanke]

I dont understand how you can get rank from a DVD series. It seems as if foot work and stuff is hard to learn unless an instructor can correct you on the spot. I cant believe you can get 10th Dan? I thought you had to go to Japan to get 5th?

You can indeed get official rank via RVD's DVD series, but how much you actually get out of it skill wise is an entirely different matter.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, you do have to go to Japan to do the 5th dan test, and I believe there are trips arranged to go there as part of the DVD course, where a whole bunch of Van Donk's students go to all grade at once.
IMO, the whole thing seems rather hollow, and devoid of spirit. One of the best parts of my martial arts experience has been meeting like minded people, many of whom I am now very happy to call my friends.
If I'd tried to learn from a DVD mail order series, I'd probably barely be able to tell which which end of a sword to swing around, and certainly wouldn't have met any new people.
So if I were you, I'd give any mail-order courses a miss

 

[EWBell]

I think the 5th dan test in the Bujinkan can now be administered outside of Japan. Recently I read that Hatsumi is allowing people to take it if there are three 15th dans present to witness it. It seems that Hatsumi is requiring that the person taking the test be able to prove their rank, and some other requirements have been added. Maybe someone who is familiar with the new system can post it.

For us in the Genbukan, you still have to get whacked by Tanemura Soke, and I doubt this will ever change.

 

[MJS]

I think the 5th dan test in the Bujinkan can now be administered outside of Japan. Recently I read that Hatsumi is allowing people to take it if there are three 15th dans present to witness it. It seems that Hatsumi is requiring that the person taking the test be able to prove their rank, and some other requirements have been added. Maybe someone who is familiar with the new system can post it.

I saw something on FB regarding the test and changes. Tried to find a link, but had no luck. Mark Lithgow was one of the people who posted it, so if anyone is on FB, you could probably read it.

For us in the Genbukan, you still have to get whacked by Tanemura Soke, and I doubt this will ever change.

Its interesting too, how he'll change the pattern of strikes that he does. Says that he does it to maintain authenticity. I can agree with that.

 

[EWBell]

Its interesting too, how he'll change the pattern of strikes that he does. Says that he does it to maintain authenticity. I can agree with that.

To my knowledge, the cut does not change until you take the Shihan test. For instance the Kyoshi test is like the Bujinkan 5th dan test, with a fukuro shinai and your back to Soke. For Jun-Shihan it is the same cut, but with a shinken. However, for the Shihan test there are two cuts with a shinken, and on that one the order can change.

Now the Renshi test can be any cut, but on that one you are facing Tanemura Soke.

 

[MJS]

To my knowledge, the cut does not change until you take the Shihan test. For instance the Kyoshi test is like the Bujinkan 5th dan test, with a fukuro shinai and your back to Soke. For Jun-Shihan it is the same cut, but with a shinken. However, for the Shihan test there are two cuts with a shinken, and on that one the order can change.

Now the Renshi test can be any cut, but on that one you are facing Tanemura Soke.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Eric,

Actually, I will clarify the point of the cut in the Kyoshi test. The cut can be either straight down to the floor or on an angle. The shihan test is two cuts.


Kind Regards,

Troy Widemanb

 

[Troy Wideman]

Sorry, to add one more thing. The reason for this possibility of the change in the cut is so people do not just move their head but have to move the whole body and roll completely away. If you do not roll away sensei will cut you a second time and you will fail the test. The idea is to escape, so that you would escape a second cut, thus preparing you for the shihan test.

 

[EWBell]

Thanks for clarifying that, Kyoshi Wideman. I was only basing that off of the info available on the Honbu website. Maybe one day I'll get to the level of taking that test..of course I might be 70 by that time.

 

[bostonshinobi]

Hi Chris, I used to have that same question and was told by one of the japanese Shihan that its a Japanese custom for the new Soke to make notes alter or change things in each arts densho as long as the original teachings are there !

 

[Chris Parker]

Er, okay, first, welcome aboard... next, uh, which part of this four page thread are you referencing here? Which question? Lastly, it isn't a Japanese custom at all, however it can be a typical occurance in Japanese martial arts, depending on the art itself. There are a number of arts who, as part of their teachings and traditions, actively avoid any major changes in such a way, and others who actively alter the curriculum with each new generation.

Feel free to stop by the Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself. Always good to have new members on board!

 

[bostonshinobi]

Er, okay, first, welcome aboard... next, uh, which part of this four page thread are you referencing here? Which question? Lastly, it isn't a Japanese custom at all, however it can be a typical occurance in Japanese martial arts, depending on the art itself. There are a number of arts who, as part of their teachings and traditions, actively avoid any major changes in such a way, and others who actively alter the curriculum with each new generation.

Feel free to stop by the Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself. Always good to have new members on board!

Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!

 

[jks9199]

Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!

Just a thought -- but could that be an admonition to ensure that the test isn't given willy-nilly and students don't end up killing each other "testing" themselves?

But, from what I've read or seen, it's quite common for inheritors of systems, whatever title they're given, to make some small adjustments or contributions to the teachings. And sometimes not so small... Chris Parker has recounted how one koryu system actually went out and sought out particular sword training because they decided that it had come to be lacking.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!

Ah, cool. One thing to remember when it comes to the Togakure Ryu scrolls is that the Ryu was passed as an oral tradition only until Takamatsu wrote them down, so aspects such as that could be at the current Soke's discretion.... there are other things that come to mind, but I'm not going into that here.

Just a thought -- but could that be an admonition to ensure that the test isn't given willy-nilly and students don't end up killing each other "testing" themselves?

But, from what I've read or seen, it's quite common for inheritors of systems, whatever title they're given, to make some small adjustments or contributions to the teachings. And sometimes not so small... Chris Parker has recounted how one koryu system actually went out and sought out particular sword training because they decided that it had come to be lacking.

Yep, that was the Hontai Yoshin Ryu, a sister art of our Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Guy Buyens has a very good article floating around somewhere about the Iai aspects of that system (incidentally, I had the opportunity to participate in a seminar on Hontai Yoshin Ryu Iai, lots o' fun!). Other alterations include systems changing focus completely (Takagi Ryu, which came to be Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and a number of others, was originally based around weapon use, but in the second generation came into contact with Takenouchi Ryu, and started to bring Jujutsu to prominence in their own curriculum), restructuring curriculum's, and so on. But then you have other systems where they are passed on with the understanding that they won't be altered (such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, or Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, who have the belief that their system is directly transmitted from Heaven, so to change it would be tantamount to sacrilige).