Mysteries of the X-Kans

[jujutsu_indonesia]

To the best of my knowledge, Shinden Fudo ryu practitioners carried quite large swords.

Kumiuchi holds are designed to prevent people from drawing their swords, among other things.

Oh, so, the Judo type hold is called Kumiuchi? And this is a close-range tactic designed to tie up the swordsman so he cannot draw his sword? Thanks for the info Nimravus.

One thing that puzzles me, SFR as shown in Hatsumi sensei & tanemura sensei's videos contains a wide range of ukemi including flips and somersaults. Wouldn't it be ackward to do such acrobatics while carrying two swords?

 

[saru1968]

no just more skillfull!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

One thing that puzzles me, SFR as shown in Hatsumi sensei & tanemura sensei's videos contains a wide range of ukemi including flips and somersaults. Wouldn't it be ackward to do such acrobatics while carrying two swords?

It beats doing regular ukemi and taking the risk of falling on your swords. Besides, to be taught Shinden Fudo ryu traditionally you had to be able to do front flips on your index fingers.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

It beats doing regular ukemi and taking the risk of falling on your swords. Besides, to be taught Shinden Fudo ryu traditionally you had to be able to do front flips on your index fingers.

Well, in that case it's sufficient to say that this art discriminates against the overweight

 

[Bujin]

Now that we are discussing the Shinden Fudô Ryû I have a question for members of the Genbukan. Do you practise the SFR jutaijutsu/jujutsu as well? Is it taught as part of SFR dakentaijutsu or separate?

I still cannot say if it is two different schools or the same. Also I wonder, which SFR was it that Takamatsu Toshitsugu studied when he entered Toda´s dojo?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Bujin,

Do you practise the SFR jutaijutsu/jujutsu as well?

The jutaijutsu school you are referring to is actually Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu. Yes, we study both SFR dakentaijutsu and SFR taijutsu

Is it taught as part of SFR dakentaijutsu or separate?

They are seperate schools.

Also I wonder, which SFR was it that Takamatsu Toshitsugu studied when he entered Toda´s dojo?

Since no one can find the records of Toda Shinryuken it is hard to answer your question, but since Toda Shinryuken is in both lineages, I can only assume that they both were taught at Toda Sensei's dojo.

 

[Bujin]

The jutaijutsu school you are referring to is actually Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu. Yes, we study both SFR dakentaijutsu and SFR taijutsu

Mr Kohler,

Thanks for the info. If you are correct, that answers many questions. I actually thought there were 3 (or more) different linages. SFR dakentaijutsu, SFR jutaijutsu and SFR taijutsu.

Does someone know if there is any historical connection between SFR dakentaijutsu and SFR taijutsu (more than the names of course)?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Mr Kohler,

Thanks for the info. If you are correct, that answers many questions. I actually thought there were 3 (or more) different linages. SFR dakentaijutsu, SFR jutaijutsu and SFR taijutsu.

Does someone know if there is any historical connection between SFR dakentaijutsu and SFR taijutsu (more than the names of course)?

Best regards / Bujin

There are 3 different SFR; dakentaijutsu, taijutsu, and kenpo. The Kenpo version I already mentioned early on this thread (I did not mention earlier, but Mabuni only gave Ueno Sensei one scroll).

I have looked at both lineages and cannot find any connection between both other than Toda Shinryuken.

 

[JAMJTX]

"As far as I can tell, Yata Noriyuki (aka Kunino Ichiro) is the one that taught Mabuni Kenwa"

This has a ring of truth to it.
Shogo Kuniba was a student of Mabuni. In 70's Kuniba introduced his "Goshin Budo" to the U.S., which was later called Kuniba Ryu Goshindo. But originally he referred to his Jujutsu as Goshi Ryu.
Although I know nothing about the development of Goshi Ryu/Goshin Budo beyond Mabuni, I have been told that there is a tradition dating back to about 1250. I do know that Kuniba learned more than Shito Ryu from Mabuni.
If anyone has documentation on the Yata-Mabuni connection I would like to see it.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

w

"As far as I can tell, Yata Noriyuki (aka Kunino Ichiro) is the one that taught Mabuni Kenwa"

This has a ring of truth to it.
Shogo Kuniba was a student of Mabuni. In 70's Kuniba introduced his "Goshin Budo" to the U.S., which was later called Kuniba Ryu Goshindo. But originally he referred to his Jujutsu as Goshi Ryu.
Although I know nothing about the development of Goshi Ryu/Goshin Budo beyond Mabuni, I have been told that there is a tradition dating back to about 1250. I do know that Kuniba learned more than Shito Ryu from Mabuni.
If anyone has documentation on the Yata-Mabuni connection I would like to see it.

Jim Mc Coy

Yes, yes, this is very interesting! I think this is another proof that there was a lot of interactions & exchange of ideas between Karate and Jujutsu stylists. I know that Iwata Manzo of Shito-ryu received Menkyokaiden in an old Jujutsu Kenpo system from Fujita Seiko called Nanban Satto-ryu. Also, Otsuka Hironori was a Shindo Yoshin-ryu stylist before training in Karate. Now we can add Mabuni Kenwa in the list of Jujutsu-Karate master

 

[JAMJTX]

You can also to the list Yasuhiro Konishi Sensei, the founder of Shindo Jinen Ryu Karatedo. He studied Takeuchi (sp) Ryu and also learned Daito Ryu from Ueshiba before taking up Karate.

I only cameto this thread because of the mention of Mabuni. I don't want to take it too far off track. I would just like to get as much info on Mabuni's Jujutsu training as I can.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Well McCoy sensei, in that case, I'd suggest we make a new thread at the Karate forum, because the main intention of this thread is to find answers regarding some "Mysteries of the X-kans"

I am sure our new thread there will be a brilliant one, because, as we have found out, not many people knows that Mabuni sensei was an expert in Jujutsu too..

 

[JAMJTX]

I'll start that thread now.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

This is the new thread


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=426909#post426909

Now let us continue to discuss the mysteries of the X-Kans

 

[orang_baik]

imho, if Takamatsu given the scroll for someone and perhaps Menkyo Kaiden to some one who even never been learnt from him, probably because some reasons :
- respect to the senior
- technique trade between takamatsu and mr x

etc

btw : Jujutsu_indonesia, even though you never learn from any x-kan, your sensei is almost like living martial art encyclopedia

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well, in that case it's sufficient to say that this art discriminates against the overweight

Not necessarily that would depend on the individual practicioner. I had a guy who was in good shape and couldn't do a handspring but yet had another student who looked overweight but his movement flowed and had no problem with his ukemi.

 

[amitchell]

1. Hatsumi sensei's senior students whom are now creating their own group like Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei had met/trained with Takamatsu sensei only ONCE, so they cannot claim to be direct students of Takamatsu sensei.

Can you direct me to where Manaka Sensei is quoted as saying that Takamatsu Sensei was his direct teacher? In private discussion with myself and my colleagues, in public, in his book and on his website he has always referred to Hatsumi Sensei as his teacher. Please do not align him with this type of misinformation.
Respectfully,
Adam Mitchell

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes Adam is right in that Manaka Sensei has always stated that Hatsumi Sensei was his teacher.

 

[kaizasosei]

As far as i know, the original systems often call for a written explaination or notice to be handed in, in the event that training is suspended. If that doesnt happen, the student will get removed from the list until such a piece of writing appears or the situation changes.


j