The world of mma

[zDom]

zDom, here is my question. If, in your opinion, Hapkido is better then MMA, why do you go out of your way to prove that "it is MMA and has everything MMA has"?

To clarify my opinion: hapkido is the best and most complete system available HERE, where I live, IMO.

If I were elsewhere, it could well be that the best training might be found in a MMA gym or club. Or in a boxing gym. Or in a Shaulin temple.

But do you really expect me to sit silent while certain MMA proponents go on and on about how ineffective TMAs are and how MMA is the ONLY "effective" and "proven" system for fighting? That's hogwash.

Moreoever, it is libel (n. a written statement in published form that damages character or reputation) and is damaging to TMA businesses. It may even be actionable in a civil court.

I'm not out to prove that hapkido IS "MMA". I think you and other MMA proponents have established that MMA is a new martial art of its own.

For one thing, "MMA" seems to lack certain elements that would make it a "-do" (Japense/Korean for "way").

Hapkido IS a mixed martial art in the sense that, as practiced in the dojang where I work out, we work on techniques for all fighting ranges.

It is a mixed martial art in the sense that "yawara" introduced by Choi, Yong Sul, was mixed with Yudo and kicking from Buddhist temples and a whole lot of other martial art stuff to come up with a complete fighting system. Different specific ingredients, but the same sort of recipe.

Only the HKD recipe has been solidified into defined curriculums whereas the MMA recipe is kind of like how some grandmothers cook "well, honey -- I put a little of this in and a little of that -- I've never bothered to write it all down..."

Out to prove hapkido has everything MMA has? Sure. Why shouldn't I? Hapkido DOES have everything MMA has. But on my part, I'm not out to bash MMA...yet.

There are some things I find very disturbing about the MMA culture which I may bring up for discussion in another thread.

 

[zDom]

To competitively compete at the highest levels of Olympic Tae Kwon Do how much do they train, though? To perform their amazing high, and arial kicks does that not rely on quite a bit of athletic training as well?

So this begs the question:

Do these same techniques work for:

a) middle aged woman?

b) 60-year old man?

c) overweight adolescent?

Sorry, had to go there.

No apology necessary -- it's a good question.

The answer is: most martial arts don't whittle down the body of techniques in their curriculum based on what is "proven in the ring" (in this case, a WTF ring?).

Granted, there are some WTF schools that have done exactly that -- and I don't approve.

The idea is to keep passing on a body of techniques large enough that the middle-aged woman, the 60-year old man, the overweight adolescent AND the athletic 23-year old man can all choose which techniques work for THEM.

The idea is for students to learn all the techniques to the best of their ability, pass them on down to the next generation of martial artists, but find and use what works best for THEM and strive to excel at those techniques.

You do have somewhat of a point here. Some techniques require some strength, though this is the case for traditional arts too. Do the same techniques work for the average Joe? Well... yes. You don't see every MMA athlete using body slams, and you do see some using hip throws (etc. Karo Parysian). MMA take their techniques from specialists in individual ranges of combat. in the case of your example it's takedowns. Lets say we take our takedowns from wrestling (folk style, Greco Roman, and freestyle). There are a wide variety of takedowns available in these disiplines to choose from, so an individual can pick and choose the ones that work best for them.

That last line is critical. I'm just wondering if they are really getting a choice or are taught or taking for granted that what works for Matt Hughes is what is best for them as an individual.

That is certainly what the Gracies seem to have done: they got rid of everything in Judo that didn't work FOR THEM. But not everybody is living in Brazil where, apparently, one-vs-one fights seem to be more of a rule than an exception.

I think MMA stylists could definately benefit from a more choices -- as some individuals have benefited, as you've pointed out.

I also want to point out that not all of these athletes have your extreemly low body fat percentages though... Hell, BJ Penn probably fights much heavier than he should to get the best performance, but that doesn't stop him from being extreemly competitive at the weight he fights.

High levels of conditioning is just one part of an equation that people who train in MMA look at. Same equations exist in traditional martial arts too, but conditioning is often overlooked (not in all schools, I know) because they are trying to keep students and they don't want to run them off. Tell me that high levels of strength, and endurance are not benificial to traditional arts too.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm not knocking conditioning at ALL. I believe most TMAs could use more.

But some people keep saying that ONLY techniques proven in the ring are effective. Meanwhile, for the most part (gotta admit: BJ is an exception, not the rule) it is only buffed out athletes "proving" the techniques work.

Heck, they are strong enough at their weight they might not even NEED good technique. There are a several fighters winning right now with success they owe to physical conditioning -- NOT their "superior technique."

In any case: kudos for discussing this out, Ybot.

 

[Rook]

To clarify my opinion: hapkido is the best and most complete system available HERE, where I live, IMO.

If I were elsewhere, it could well be that the best training might be found in a MMA gym or club. Or in a boxing gym. Or in a Shaulin temple.

Ok. Thats fine. There are lots of people on most forums who either can't or choose not to train in MMA but still believe that the pro MMAists are the superior fighters. I am one of them. We may seek spirtuality, personal development, oriental culture, personal fitness, or just socialization and fun. We can't beat profession MMA fighters and we know it. We watch their matches, train (in my case anyway) in similar techniques and defend them on the internet.

But do you really expect me to sit silent while certain MMA proponents go on and on about how ineffective TMAs are and how MMA is the ONLY "effective" and "proven" system for fighting? That's hogwash.

Hmm.

Moreoever, it is libel (n. a written statement in published form that damages character or reputation) and is damaging to TMA businesses. It may even be actionable in a civil court.

1. Opinions are exempt from libel. This includes exceedingly insulting opinions and ones with which you strenously disagree (like mine).

2. "Fair comment" rule exempts matters of public concern. The efficacy of various martial arts is a matter of public concern to quite a few of us.

3. Truth defense - if a comment is either true or could be held to be true by a "reasonable person," libel doesn't apply. If you sue me, I promise to call the gracies to testify.

I'm not out to prove that hapkido IS "MMA". I think you and other MMA proponents have established that MMA is a new martial art of its own.

For one thing, "MMA" seems to lack certain elements that would make it a "-do" (Japense/Korean for "way").

True.

Hapkido IS a mixed martial art in the sense that, as practiced in the dojang where I work out, we work on techniques for all fighting ranges.

Huh?

It is a mixed martial art in the sense that "yawara" introduced by Choi, Yong Sul, was mixed with Yudo and kicking from Buddhist temples and a whole lot of other martial art stuff to come up with a complete fighting system. Different specific ingredients, but the same sort of recipe.

Almost every martial art has been at one point either created from two or more mixed arts, or substantially influnced by another. That does not make them "mixed" in the sense we have been using. You would be hard pressed to find any existing system that DOESN'T meet the definition of mixed as including things from 2 or more others systems integrated into one new system.

Only the HKD recipe has been solidified into defined curriculums whereas the MMA recipe is kind of like how some grandmothers cook "well, honey -- I put a little of this in and a little of that -- I've never bothered to write it all down..."

We call that "adapting to the individual" and consider it different than "cookie cutter" methods.

Out to prove hapkido has everything MMA has? Sure. Why shouldn't I? Hapkido DOES have everything MMA has. But on my part, I'm not out to bash MMA...yet.

There are some things I find very disturbing about the MMA culture which I may bring up for discussion in another thread.

I'll look forward to it.

 

[zDom]

Hmm. Restaurants tastes are subjective. We can objectively determine the better fighters by having them fight each other and then see who is left standing. If you want to see X technique, Y strategy, or Z style works well, someone (ussually several someones) has to suceed in using it on a consistant basis against other competitive fighters in RECORDED MATCHES (not legends or unrecorded stories).

Once again, Rook, you are setting a criteria for "proof" that is unreasonable and not necessarily applicable.

- courts of law find testimony "good enough." They don't insist on any specific videotaped arena.

- thousands and thousands of years of history are accepted without any videotaped proof.

- there is no consensus that the UFC is the only arena in which success is verifiable.


TMAs have been proven time and time again for thousands of years on a consistent basis before the UFC and video tape were around to record results.

If these MMA techniques are so good, why don't these MMA stylists go out and dominate in all the other martial art sports?

Why don't they go win some WTF matches? Win some Judo matches? Win some ITF championships? If their techniques are SO "effective," then surely they can win in other arenas, right? Lets see it. Show me some recorded matches.

If Muay Thai is the best kicking, for example, and MMA guys have picked the best MT kicks to master, then have them PROVE it by going out and dominating in Olympic Sparring.

Show ME "recorded matches."

If they are SO consistent, then they can SURELY reproduce their dominance in OTHER sports, not just their own.

 

[Rook]

Once again, Rook, you are setting a criteria for "proof" that is unreasonable and not necessarily applicable.

- courts of law find testimony "good enough." They don't insist on any specific videotaped arena.

It doesn't have to be an arena. I don't care if its around an alley, inside a bar, in a ring, onboard a ship, on a blimp, in your house, under a bridge, standing on a beach or whatever.

- thousands and thousands of years of history are accepted without any videotaped proof.

You mean the legends and such? Stuff like Sun Lu Tang outrunning horses (contradicted by his own daughter no less), Yang Lu Chan twisting the shaft of a spear and throwing a man onto the roof of a five story building, Ueshiba teleporting and dodging bullets, and all this in the last 150 years? (It only gets crazier the futher back you go)

We ussually end up with stories like "Well, according to my teacher, our grandmaster once kicked a man in Seoul so hard he landed in Beijing" - and this isn't proof of anything but gullibility.

- there is no consensus that the UFC is the only arena in which success is verifiable.

No one said so. I consider video-taped challenge matches without rules, with fewer rules than most MMA competitions or with MMA rules to be equally if not more valid. There are many other arenas besides the UFC, by the way, including PRIDE, RINGS, Pancrase, AFC, IAFC, IFL, and numerous other newer or more local organizations.

TMAs have been proven time and time again for thousands of years on a consistent basis before the UFC and video tape were around to record results.

Ok. I jumped 200 feet in the air last week when no one was there to see it. Matter of fact, my grandfather did it 50 years ago too, but no one saw him either.

If these MMA techniques are so good, why don't these MMA stylists go out and dominate in all the other martial art sports?

Restrictions prevent the use of their techniques. Nothing is prohibited in no-rules matches - which is why I tend to favor them as proof.

Why don't they go win some WTF matches? Win some Judo matches? Win some ITF championships? If their techniques are SO "effective," then surely they can win in other arenas, right? Lets see it. Show me some recorded matches.

If Muay Thai is the best kicking, for example, and MMA guys have picked the best MT kicks to master, then have them PROVE it by going out and dominating in Olympic Sparring.

Show ME "recorded matches."

If they are SO consistent, then they can SURELY reproduce their dominance in OTHER sports, not just their own.

See above. Dominence can be outside of any sport - in challenge matches with no rules and no prohibited areas. In a contest to point fight, or display various cultural relics, the point becomes winning within those rules.

 

[zDom]

Ok. Thats fine. There are lots of people on most forums who either can't or choose not to train in MMA but still believe that the pro MMAists are the superior fighters. I am one of them.

Have you changed your stance? Your previous position was that TMAs are ineffective for self defense because, you claim, they have not been "proven in the ring."

Asserting that "pro MMAists are the superior fighters" has nothing to do with your previous claim that TMAs are ineffective.

And superior to who? All other professional fighters? To your average martial art student?

Granted, there may lot of Korean "grandmasters" that got left Korea with 1st or 2nd degree blackbelts who arrived in the U.S. and were suddenly 8th or 9th degrees. but don't make the mistake of thinking they are all fakes.

I'd like to see ANY of the UFCs top strikers pitted against Pu Gil Gwon when he was 30.

Someone like Pu Gil or the late Grandmaster Lee H. Park, who founded my the school I go to, would have put your UFC heroes in the hospital, without a doubt. You just have NO idea how dangerous these men were.

The early hapkido masters proved their stuff on the street with plenty of witnesses, both in Korea and here in the U.S.

I wish you COULD taunt one of those guys into the ring. I'd LOVE to see it.

We may seek spirtuality, personal development, oriental culture, personal fitness, or just socialization and fun. We can't beat profession MMA fighters and we know it.

Me or you? Nah. I'm too old and definately not conditioned for a UFC bout. And you never have answered my questions about your experience level, so I'm guessing you aren't either.

But these are apples and oranges, comparing part-time athletes to professional athletes.

Let's see the Iceman vs Tyson. It sure would be interesting.

It's too bad Gene Labell isn't a young buck anymore. I'd like to see Mr. Labell against Matt Hughes.

And we already know what happened when Helio fought Kimura.

We watch their matches, train (in my case anyway) in similar techniques and defend them on the internet.

I watch their matches, train similar techniques and have actually defended myself ON THE STREET. So I happen to walk the walk in addition to just talking the talk.

1. Opinions are exempt from libel. This includes exceedingly insulting opinions and ones with which you strenously disagree (like mine).

Stating that a product or service DOES NOT WORK is NOT an opinion.

You aren't saying "Coke is better than Pepsi" or "Chevy is better than Ford."

You have crossed that line on several occasions and said, essentially,

"Pepsi is ineffective in quenching thirst" or "Ford can not get you from point A to point B."

2. "Fair comment" rule exempts matters of public concern. The efficacy of various martial arts is a matter of public concern to quite a few of us.

Hmm.

3. Truth defense - if a comment is either true or could be held to be true by a "reasonable person," libel doesn't apply. If you sue me, I promise to call the gracies to testify.

Only problem, Kev, is that the courts do not hold an unreasonable criteria for proof like you do. You have stated, in print, that TMA techniques are ineffective while TMAists are able to produce hundreds and hundreds of witnesses who will testify under oath that they have personally used TMA techniques or seen them used in self defense situations.

A Gracie tape of them beating up a martial artist in a challenge match does NOT prove them ineffective in self defense.

Almost every martial art has been at one point either created from two or more mixed arts, or substantially influnced by another. That does not make them "mixed" in the sense we have been using. You would be hard pressed to find any existing system that DOESN'T meet the definition of mixed as including things from 2 or more others systems integrated into one new system.

You obviously missed how I seperated MMA (proper noun) from "mixed martial art" as a generic phrase.

We call that "adapting to the individual" and consider it different than "cookie cutter" methods.

To me, it looks like YOU are the one cookie cutting. If they don't use YOUR list of "optimum techniques" then you declare them ineffective.

TMAs as I have experienced them give you a wide range of techniques for the individual to choose from and make their own.

I'll look forward to it.

I'm still undecided as not ALL MMA proponents hold your radical views. I don't want to make sweeping generalizations that I will regret later.

In the meantime, Kevin, let me repeat some questions you've dodged in the past along with a couple new ones:

a) How long have you been training, in what arts, and to what level have you successfully tested?

b) Are you training MMA under any particular camp or system?

c) How many times have you defended yourself against assaults?

d) How many NHB matches have you fought?

e) How many other combat sports have you participated in?

Looking forward to your learning more about your background!

 

[zDom]

It doesn't have to be an arena. I don't care if its around an alley, inside a bar, in a ring, onboard a ship, on a blimp, in your house, under a bridge, standing on a beach or whatever.

You insist on videotape though, right? Take out the point about "arena" and my point is still made.

I'm not sorry that I don't go out looking for challenge matches with a camera man like your heroes, the Gracies.

It comes with the "Do" part of Hapkido.

That's why, I guess, it ended up being "Gracie Jiujitsu" instead of "Gracie Judo" (even though the true source was Judo).

All technique without the other "stuff" that goes with Do.

You mean the legends and such? Stuff like Sun Lu Tang outrunning horses (contradicted by his own daughter no less), Yang Lu Chan twisting the shaft of a spear and throwing a man onto the roof of a five story building, Ueshiba teleporting and dodging bullets, and all this in the last 150 years? (It only gets crazier the futher back you go)

Nope, that's NOT what I mean. I mean stories like:

One day Grandmaster Park was having pizza and beers with several of his blackbelt students when a group of rednecks entered and started making racial slurs about Park.

The students got angry and stood up. Park told them to sit down. He tried to smooth things over, but the rednecks pushed it further and asked him if he would like to take it outside.

Park politely asked them to watch their step as he exited the establishment with them.

He re-entered five minutes later, unscathed, and politely asked the establisment's manager to call an ambulance.

Not 150 years ago, only about 25 years ago.

Or do you want me to re-tell the story of how, only four or five years ago, I defended myself against two rednecks while I had an injured hamstring? I could probably get you the phone number of the bar owner if I tried hard enough. I don't think Al or his patrons will EVER forget the day I sent those bullies home with their tails between their legs and missing several teeth.

We ussually end up with stories like "Well, according to my teacher, our grandmaster once kicked a man in Seoul so hard he landed in Beijing" - and this isn't proof of anything but gullibility.

We don't need to make up wild stories. There are plenty of stories with plenty of witnesses to verify that Moo Sul Kwan TKD and HKD *do* work.

Park taught at the local college. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who would swear on a Bible to dozens of stories about the amazing things Park was capable of.

No one said so. I consider video-taped challenge matches without rules, with fewer rules than most MMA competitions or with MMA rules to be equally if not more valid. There are many other arenas besides the UFC, by the way, including PRIDE, RINGS, Pancrase, AFC, IAFC, IFL, and numerous other newer or more local organizations.

Yep -- those Pride Bushido fighters surely are a tough bunch. I like Pride fighting whole lot better. Less smack talking, more action.

But with you its always about the tape, eh?

Sorry, but I'm not about to go put someone in the hospital so you can be convinced.

I wonder if I can get the mugshot and police report from our local police department from the last assault I defended against. Six 20-year old attackers vs me. My mugshot shows that I was completly uninjured.

The one that got too close had two red-purple bumps the size of robin eggs right next to his temple from a backfist strike.

Not sure if our DPS would release those pics and police report to post here, but would it convince you if I was able to come up with them?

Ok. I jumped 200 feet in the air last week when no one was there to see it. Matter of fact, my grandfather did it 50 years ago too, but no one saw him either.

Any credible witnessess? I think not. This claim is absurd. My claim that traditional martial arts work is NOT absurd.

Restrictions prevent the use of their techniques. Nothing is prohibited in no-rules matches - which is why I tend to favor them as proof.

Do you want me to post the list of, what, 40 rules that govern UFC matches? Or google Pride Fight rules?

See above. Dominence can be outside of any sport - in challenge matches with no rules and no prohibited areas. In a contest to point fight, or display various cultural relics, the point becomes winning within those rules.

You keep changing your criteria for proof.

One minute a UFC match or Pride Fight is valid. The next post you change so now you only accept No Holds Barred as proof.

Make up your mind, Kevin. I think we are boring people with this whack-a-mole argument game you insist on playing.

 

[matt.m]

In all fairness of seeing both sides and trying to stay neutral......

MMA is a sport and not an art built around a true street self defense cirriculum. It evolved from the Gracies BJJ subset and blossomed from there. It is becoming an art considering as has been pointed out to be a great skillset for Octogon fighting. I have no doubt that they beat the snot out of each other. I was front row in Charolette, NC for UFC II.

Now, to say that TMA are ineffective then you are devalidating the Gracies BJJ that the MMA crowd holds onto for dear life for validation purposes.

Ok, a case in point. I have numerous gold medals in international Greco Roman and Judo competitions. I also have 20 medals and ribbons while going into combat while in the Marine Corps.

I will say this.....there is absolutely no way that I ever compared hand to hand to sport. The two are totally different.

Now consider this, I have been in a ton of combat fights where I knew the aggressor had every intention of killing me. Did I attempt a throw or takedown? The answer in no. However I found joint locks, cane techniques, and high impact kicking quite effective.

I am sorry, I have a proven record in combat and in mat competition so I dare say that I am knowledgeable of the subject of combat.

I say this....there is no such thing as a best art. There is a best art for what the practitioner wants to learn and accomplish.

However, I will bring to everyones attention......MMA as an art is a sport. It is designed for effective Octogon matches. These matches have rules.

If there are rules then it is a contest not a fight. I don't care how big the arena or gym, a contest is a contest.

A fight has no rules. Plus, even an accomplished grappler such as I - I do have 51 gold medals in Judo and Greco combined - the last thing I would ever do is go to the ground with someone if I could keep from it.

Here is a big difference as well. Yep on any street corner in any town you can find Tae kwon Do competitions going on all the time. Yep you bet there a ton of rules making it a contest as well. Yep there are schools that operate solely on the premise of Olympic sparring. This all parallels with MMA as I have noted previously.

However, Tae Kwon Do and Judo are two different things when comparing self-defense Tae Kwon Do and Judo with their Olympic style counter parts.

A big part of the cirriculums of the sport aspect of both arts would never logically or reasonably be used in a street situation.

 

[MJS]

You insist on videotape though, right? Take out the point about "arena" and my point is still made.

I'm not sorry that I don't go out looking for challenge matches with a camera man like your heroes, the Gracies.

It comes with the "Do" part of Hapkido.

That's why, I guess, it ended up being "Gracie Jiujitsu" instead of "Gracie Judo" (even though the true source was Judo).

All technique without the other "stuff" that goes with Do.




Nope, that's NOT what I mean. I mean stories like:

One day Grandmaster Park was having pizza and beers with several of his blackbelt students when a group of rednecks entered and started making racial slurs about Park.

The students got angry and stood up. Park told them to sit down. He tried to smooth things over, but the rednecks pushed it further and asked him if he would like to take it outside.

Park politely asked them to watch their step as he exited the establishment with them.

He re-entered five minutes later, unscathed, and politely asked the establisment's manager to call an ambulance.

Not 150 years ago, only about 25 years ago.

Or do you want me to re-tell the story of how, only four or five years ago, I defended myself against two rednecks while I had an injured hamstring? I could probably get you the phone number of the bar owner if I tried hard enough. I don't think Al or his patrons will EVER forget the day I sent those bullies home with their tails between their legs and missing several teeth.




We don't need to make up wild stories. There are plenty of stories with plenty of witnesses to verify that Moo Sul Kwan TKD and HKD *do* work.

Park taught at the local college. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who would swear on a Bible to dozens of stories about the amazing things Park was capable of.



Yep -- those Pride Bushido fighters surely are a tough bunch. I like Pride fighting whole lot better. Less smack talking, more action.

But with you its always about the tape, eh?

Sorry, but I'm not about to go put someone in the hospital so you can be convinced.

I wonder if I can get the mugshot and police report from our local police department from the last assault I defended against. Six 20-year old attackers vs me. My mugshot shows that I was completly uninjured.

The one that got too close had two red-purple bumps the size of robin eggs right next to his temple from a backfist strike.

Not sure if our DPS would release those pics and police report to post here, but would it convince you if I was able to come up with them?




Any credible witnessess? I think not. This claim is absurd. My claim that traditional martial arts work is NOT absurd.




Do you want me to post the list of, what, 40 rules that govern UFC matches? Or google Pride Fight rules?



You keep changing your criteria for proof.

One minute a UFC match or Pride Fight is valid. The next post you change so now you only accept No Holds Barred as proof.

Make up your mind, Kevin. I think we are boring people with this whack-a-mole argument game you insist on playing.

Yes, and this is something that I've said myself, many times, in past arguments. There are people that have successfully defended themselves, such as the ones you've mentioned, and there is no tape. IMO, I just can't but the notion that the cage is the only way to determine what works and what does not.

In any case, I'm sure these last post will generate some rather interesting replies, so I'll just kick back and see what happens.

opcorn: :drinkbeer

 

[Rook]

Have you changed your stance? Your previous position was that TMAs are ineffective for self defense because, you claim, they have not been "proven in the ring."

I did specifically allow for video or publically recorded fights outside the ring. I don't believe I have ever held fights outside the ring to not count as proof.

Asserting that "pro MMAists are the superior fighters" has nothing to do with your previous claim that TMAs are ineffective.

Yes, indeed it does. I believe that against a solid ranked pro-MMA fighter, any unarmed TMA would be ineffective.

And superior to who? All other professional fighters? To your average martial art student?

See above.

Granted, there may lot of Korean "grandmasters" that got left Korea with 1st or 2nd degree blackbelts who arrived in the U.S. and were suddenly 8th or 9th degrees. but don't make the mistake of thinking they are all fakes.

I understand that not all ranks in KMA are self-awarded or handed out by the local madeup organizations. I don't think, however, that holding a nose-bleed rank from a "valid" organization reflects fighting ability much more than any other form or lineage, although it establishes traditionalist creditials.

I'd like to see ANY of the UFCs top strikers pitted against Pu Gil Gwon when he was 30.

I'd like to see it too.

Someone like Pu Gil or the late Grandmaster Lee H. Park, who founded my the school I go to, would have put your UFC heroes in the hospital, without a doubt. You just have NO idea how dangerous these men were.

I have a good idea of the mythos around tradition martial arts heroes of all styles. The fact that they are no longer able to fight makes them convinient foils - their capabilities cannot be tested.

The early hapkido masters proved their stuff on the street with plenty of witnesses, both in Korea and here in the U.S.

I wish you COULD taunt one of those guys into the ring. I'd LOVE to see it.

I would very much like to see it.

Me or you? Nah. I'm too old and definately not conditioned for a UFC bout. And you never have answered my questions about your experience level, so I'm guessing you aren't either.

But these are apples and oranges, comparing part-time athletes to professional athletes.

Let's see the Iceman vs Tyson. It sure would be interesting.

They have been trying to get Tyson in an MMA ring for a long time, and everyone from the Gracies to Bob Sapp has challenged him. Tyson has trained BJJ with the Gracies and submission wrestling with Mark Kerr. I don't know the depth of his ground skill yet, but I would like to see him fight under MMA or fewer as well.

It's too bad Gene Labell isn't a young buck anymore. I'd like to see Mr. Labell against Matt Hughes.

Mr. LeBell has grappled at full speed with several currently competitive fighters and I don't doubt he would have been a very dangerous man in any time - he trains a couple of the current crop in submission grappling.

And we already know what happened when Helio fought Kimura.

Yep. You should read about Kimura. Interesting man, the most competitively sucessful judoist in history, a solid karate striker who crosstrained extensively with Mas Oyama (Oyama called Kimura the only man he ever feared), and a physical fitness maniac who did 1000 consecutive pushups every morning 7 days a week. He was very much a forerunner of the modern age of martial arts, who trained in two full resistance sports styles, kyokushin karate and Judo, in order to strike and grapple.

I watch their matches, train similar techniques and have actually defended myself ON THE STREET. So I happen to walk the walk in addition to just talking the talk.

Ok.

Stating that a product or service DOES NOT WORK is NOT an opinion.

You aren't saying "Coke is better than Pepsi" or "Chevy is better than Ford."

You have crossed that line on several occasions and said, essentially,

"Pepsi is ineffective in quenching thirst" or "Ford can not get you from point A to point B."

Still in the realm of opinion.

Only problem, Kev, is that the courts do not hold an unreasonable criteria for proof like you do. You have stated, in print, that TMA techniques are ineffective while TMAists are able to produce hundreds and hundreds of witnesses who will testify under oath that they have personally used TMA techniques or seen them used in self defense situations.

A Gracie tape of them beating up a martial artist in a challenge match does NOT prove them ineffective in self defense.

You misread what I typed. The truth defense means either A. That what I said is true or B. That a reasonable person could come to believe that what I said is true. I think there is no shortage or evidence that would suggest that a "reasonable person" could come to the same conclusion that I have reached.

You obviously missed how I seperated MMA (proper noun) from "mixed martial art" as a generic phrase.

Sorry.

To me, it looks like YOU are the one cookie cutting. If they don't use YOUR list of "optimum techniques" then you declare them ineffective.

Optimum techniques for the individual can potentially be anything. We have a good idea of what "best practices" ussually are, but if someone else can make something work consistantly in recorded competition, then that can easily get added. Unique individuals can have unusual strengths... if Karelin were to compete in MMA the suplex would probably be a basic and optimal technique for him given the sucess he has had with it... for most people it is not.

TMAs as I have experienced them give you a wide range of techniques for the individual to choose from and make their own.

I'm still undecided as not ALL MMA proponents hold your radical views. I don't want to make sweeping generalizations that I will regret later.

I don't think you can draw a representative sample of MMA from the internet and I don't represent the only view on this matter by any means.

 

[Rook]

You insist on videotape though, right? Take out the point about "arena" and my point is still made.

I'm not sorry that I don't go out looking for challenge matches with a camera man like your heroes, the Gracies.

Ok. You realize that there really isn't any way to prove something without evidence... you have stories, I've heard them, they might be true, but there isn't anything to give credence to them.

Even if its true, we know nothing about the opponents. Are they people who are trained fighters? How big are they? How much punishment can they take? How is their conditioning? Without any sort of record of their own, and no video to estimate off of, there isn't really a way to know.

It comes with the "Do" part of Hapkido.

That's why, I guess, it ended up being "Gracie Jiujitsu" instead of "Gracie Judo" (even though the true source was Judo).

All technique without the other "stuff" that goes with Do.

True enough. Cultural trappings aren't really necessary for fighting.

Nope, that's NOT what I mean. I mean stories like:

One day Grandmaster Park was having pizza and beers with several of his blackbelt students when a group of rednecks entered and started making racial slurs about Park.

The students got angry and stood up. Park told them to sit down. He tried to smooth things over, but the rednecks pushed it further and asked him if he would like to take it outside.

Park politely asked them to watch their step as he exited the establishment with them.

He re-entered five minutes later, unscathed, and politely asked the establisment's manager to call an ambulance.

Not 150 years ago, only about 25 years ago.

Ok. See above questions about video, opponents capabilities etc.

Or do you want me to re-tell the story of how, only four or five years ago, I defended myself against two rednecks while I had an injured hamstring? I could probably get you the phone number of the bar owner if I tried hard enough. I don't think Al or his patrons will EVER forget the day I sent those bullies home with their tails between their legs and missing several teeth.

Same questions.
1. How do we know that this actually happened?
2. How capable were the opponents?

I don't know. That's the problem.

We don't need to make up wild stories. There are plenty of stories with plenty of witnesses to verify that Moo Sul Kwan TKD and HKD *do* work.

Park taught at the local college. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who would swear on a Bible to dozens of stories about the amazing things Park was capable of.

Same questions...

Yep -- those Pride Bushido fighters surely are a tough bunch. I like Pride fighting whole lot better. Less smack talking, more action.

True.

But with you its always about the tape, eh?

Always. Without evidence, any story goes, and then we're just back into legend and myth, and wondering whether Zhang Shen hitting a man into the air so hard he never came down is more impressive than Li Shun Long blasting someone with a lighting bolt.

Sorry, but I'm not about to go put someone in the hospital so you can be convinced.

I don't think that will happen. Most ring matches and even no rules challenge matches end without any injury requiring hospitalization.

I wonder if I can get the mugshot and police report from our local police department from the last assault I defended against. Six 20-year old attackers vs me. My mugshot shows that I was completly uninjured.

The one that got too close had two red-purple bumps the size of robin eggs right next to his temple from a backfist strike.

Not sure if our DPS would release those pics and police report to post here, but would it convince you if I was able to come up with them?

That would certainly help, but I don't think it would adjust the final conclusions.

Any credible witnessess? I think not. This claim is absurd. My claim that traditional martial arts work is NOT absurd.

See above.

Do you want me to post the list of, what, 40 rules that govern UFC matches? Or google Pride Fight rules?

You keep changing your criteria for proof.

One minute a UFC match or Pride Fight is valid. The next post you change so now you only accept No Holds Barred as proof.

Make up your mind, Kevin. I think we are boring people with this whack-a-mole argument game you insist on playing.

I think that MMA rules are the maximum amount of rules that can cover a fighting competition. Those rules, or fewer rules than those (ie MMA less a few or all), are the situations in which it is relavent to compare skills.

 

[matt.m]

You guys,

I think it is entirely funny, actually laughable that you want to do your best to refute zDom at every turn. Yet I am from the same school, I know more of the Moo Sul Kwan history (Debateable) and have seen my pop, his teacher trash people who came to challenge him in the 80's. There would never be just one, always at least five. Pop wouldn't even break a sweat.

Is it because with my last post that I possibly struck a nerve, being a former international competitor in greco and judo. I am saying too many things that are true.

It seems that a few MMAer's don't want to believe that there art is designed more for sport than self defense.

Sorry, Just my opinion. I think that if people want to train MMA then that is great, just don't trash what other people do.

Also, and this is a big one here.....I know zDom has street experience, I have nothing to prove. However, if you don't have any scenerio to back up theories then don't say that this or that will work. To do so is ridiculous.

 

[Ybot]

It is not just BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling etc. Those have been proven effective, but they are not the end all be all. And MMA guys don't except their teachings on faith either. They put the concepts to the test in training. There are quite a few fighters out there very critical of BJJ these days, and well they should be. BJJ is too reliant on guard fighting, and fighters these days know how to deal effectively with the guard. Each of these arts when practiced alone include things that are unbenifical to an MMA match. Thats where MMA is seperate from these arts. I practice BJJ, and don't concider myself an MMA fighter. I don't train in the other ranges of combat and don't spend time sparing in all ranges so I can decide what parts of these arts work, and what parts don't, for MMA.

IMO MMA is a mixture of styles. But it is training each style with a goal of making it work for MMA. It is a belief in specialty. Each of the styles BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Wrestling have stong emphasis on one range of combat. Instructors in these arts have a strong understanding of their choosen range. It's kind of a college mentality, I go to the guy with the PhD in a specific subject to learn that subject.

Now I am very critical of where MMA is leading. I started another thread where I questioned wether a fighter should have a strong base in one range of combat before moving on to MMA training. I believe they should. I worry that the future generation of MMA fighters will lack the nessisary debth of knowlage to teach any one range effectively. Jack of all trades, master of none...

 

[Rook]

Look, the Gracies destroyed hundreds of these "street warriors" in the gracies in action tapes... The early UFCs were mostly people who both had legitimate "street cred" in policework, bouncing and security as well as TMA experiance. The challenge is still open from the Gracies out of the ring and others, like the Chute-Boxe Team and various others, Bullshido is offering to fly C-level professional fighters to face off with anyone who wants to fight - combined they beat many, many streetfighters and hundreds of TMAists cum streetwarriors. They did it with, to date, near 100% consistancy.

 

[Ybot]

Oh, and I will never argue that anyone elses MA style is ineffective. Instead I will try it, and if I feel the art has strong points that can help me I'll steal those techniques. I think that is more the mind set of a good MMA fighter...

 

[Andrew Green]

You guys,

I think it is entirely funny, actually laughable that you want to do your best to refute zDom at every turn. Yet I am from the same school, I know more of the Moo Sul Kwan history (Debateable) and have seen my pop, his teacher trash people who came to challenge him in the 80's. There would never be just one, always at least five. Pop wouldn't even break a sweat.

I think what they are getting at is that Anecdotal evidence is not particullarly reliable. As it is isolated instances and as much as one person says one thing, 10 others say the opposite.

So what is leaned towards is results which can be replicated, with different fighters on both sides, in a public event with documented results, and documentation on the fighters.

It seems that a few MMAer's don't want to believe that there art is designed more for sport than self defense.

Most of us accept that, and accept that MMA is designed for a one on one fight, with limited to no rules. But where no weapons and no outside inteference is a given.

 

[tatsu dynamo]

the original basis of mma competition was directly to put style against style and see who comes out on top. any one who tries to put a direct style on mma is out of thier mind. and in basis there is no style of mma. the closest "style" of any mma is the original principles of jkd. but now that has even been catagorized as a style which is totaly wrong. true mma or jkd art was ment for adaptation to all fighting methods what style came through was one made by your own mind and body or better put as your own original way of fighting which everyone has. the key point is everyone is diffrent and has a diffrent way of doing anything. immitation is the lowest form of self worth. if you are to busy mimicing someone like bruce lee or ken shamrock for example you are not finding your self in martial arts. and thats the most important goal

 

[Ybot]

Most of us accept that, and accept that MMA is designed for a one on one fight, with limited to no rules. But where no weapons and no outside inteference is a given.

Absolutely. But being that MMA includes crazy conditioning, and they do learn how to punch, kick, and grapple I would say an MMA athlete has a better than average chance in a street encounter, even if that isn't what they train for.

Now it's time for my anecdotal evidence.

I know a pro fighter from my area, probably one of the top fighters in his weight in the world. Anyway, not too long ago he went to Thailand. He was out at a club by him self (he admits it was stupid) and got into a confrontation with some locals. He was attacked and chased by a gang of guys who durring the whole thing broke bottles on his head and punched him with brass knuckles, and hit him with bats.

He survived, and says it was his conditioning that saved him. He was able, basicly to run for his life, and continue running until his pursuers ran out of energy. He did fight back, but only enough to defend himself and break away.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Oh, and I will never argue that anyone elses MA style is ineffective. Instead I will try it, and if I feel the art has strong points that can help me I'll steal those techniques. I think that is more the mind set of a good MMA fighter...

Thank you. If all competitive grapplers had the same attitude, I don't think discussions such as these would be so contentious.

You're right about a core art, but there is room for a style that will teach a student the fundamentals of all ranges in 6-8 months. I certainly would have loved to attend one when I was in my college years. As it was, I had to take boxing from one coach, Judo from another and TKD from a third.

 

[MJS]

Absolutely. But being that MMA includes crazy conditioning, and they do learn how to punch, kick, and grapple I would say an MMA athlete has a better than average chance in a street encounter, even if that isn't what they train for.

Question: Do you feel its possible to defend something with no knowledge of it? For example: the MMAist, AFAIK, does not train weapons. That being said, how do you train something you're unfamiliar with? If a TMAist, who has no knowledge of the ground ends up there...well, we've seen what happened to those one dimensional fighters in the early UFCs.

Now it's time for my anecdotal evidence.

I know a pro fighter from my area, probably one of the top fighters in his weight in the world. Anyway, not too long ago he went to Thailand. He was out at a club by him self (he admits it was stupid) and got into a confrontation with some locals. He was attacked and chased by a gang of guys who durring the whole thing broke bottles on his head and punched him with brass knuckles, and hit him with bats.

He survived, and says it was his conditioning that saved him. He was able, basicly to run for his life, and continue running until his pursuers ran out of energy. He did fight back, but only enough to defend himself and break away.

Is there a tape of that?

LOL, just kidding!