zDom
Senior Master
And I prefer to start with a nice, safe foxhole. From there I can start on digging a trench
The world of mma
- Thread starter jkd friend
- Start date
And I prefer to start with a nice, safe foxhole. From there I can start on digging a trench
matt.m
Senior Master
I am not trying to start a fight.....I am merely asking a question. So if what Andrew said is true about their being a structure to a general cirriculum then how could it be mixed martial arts if wrestling and boxing are involved?
Wrestling and boxing are not martial arts by definition.
Wrestling and boxing are not martial arts by definition.
matt.m
Senior Master
futhermore, if a practical approach "best of" or most suitable technique application is to be set as a standard guideline then it would stand to reason that traditional hapkido is the original mma, not jeet kune do as I have heard others state.
here is what i mean: hapkido has punching, kicking, locks, throws, chokes, cane, modified throwing, judo randori, tae kwon do sparring, and knife defense.
here is what i mean: hapkido has punching, kicking, locks, throws, chokes, cane, modified throwing, judo randori, tae kwon do sparring, and knife defense.
I'm pretty sure that the "original" MMA is far older than either hapkido or JKD. Pankration for one, predates both of them.
But again, I am not really discussing quantity of techniques. Rather, how they are trained. MMA is all combat ranges with resistance. This is a subtle but important difference. It is technically differrent to face an opponent that can strike you from the mount, if you are only used to non-striking grappling.
Oh for crying out loud... we've been through this before. Almost every art started out mixing most suitable techniques from different styles in the views of the founder. JKD and MMA are different in the methodology and the application of this.
Ok.
I think one of the big differences between the mindset of MMA & JKD vs other more traditional arts is in WHO is allowed to do the mixing. MMA and JKD pretty much state that every fighter needs to find there own style, draw from whatever they can make work.
More traditional styles have rules about who is allowed to change what, and it is generally reserved for the head of the system, and even then is very limited as if they make too many changes all the students will follow the next in line guy that is keeping to the "rules" of the style.
More traditional styles have rules about who is allowed to change what, and it is generally reserved for the head of the system, and even then is very limited as if they make too many changes all the students will follow the next in line guy that is keeping to the "rules" of the style.
ace
Master of Arts
It's simple, to use what works at that moment & time.
is MMA an extension of Bruce Lees JKD? I say yes.
Some say No but its for us as individuals to decide right.
Ybot
Blue Belt
I'm sure this has been argued before, but in my definition of Martial Arts, boxing and wrestling fit right in. Depends how you define it. To me martial sports are also martial arts...
Could a Muay Thai curriculum not involve Boxing work and still be a Muay Thai Curriculum?
Isolating specific skill sets to develop them is common in just about every sport. In MMA you will isolate punching (boxing) Striking (Muay Thai) takedowns (Wrestling) submissions, and countless other things. Goal is always the finished product though, not the smaller skill sets.
zDom
Senior Master
That's different than what some of the other MMA proponents say.
You say:
While THEY said only BJJ, boxing, wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai can be trained and be "MMA."
Ok, another analogy:
If "what works" = hot, fresh food,
Some people seem to believe think the ONLY way you can get hot, fresh food is if you get it from a buffet
presumably because THEY were served cold, old food from a restaurant.
But who is to say, if you order from a GOOD restaurant, that you can't get something off the menu that has everything you like, hot and fresh?
And who is to say that eventually SOME buffets will begin getting lazy and letting their buffet food get old and cold?
Once again I maintain:
No one system, school or organization has the ONLY source to good techniques and solid training techniques.
The more popular MMA organizations get, the more likely you are to get students who are in it "just for the health benefits" and don't WANT to get hit hard and instructors who are willing to water down the combat applicability until you get -- SURPRISE! -- MMA-trained students who are ineffective in real combat/self-defense situations.
Generalizations are dangerous. Just because your local Chinese restaurant has lousy food doesn't mean the Chinese restaurant in MY neighborhood sucks.
Just because your local Mexican buffet has great burritos that fill you up doesn't mean I am going to get a great, satisfying burrito at MY local Mexican buffet.
Nearly all restaurant chains start out with a great reputation -- which is how they are able to sell franchises. Eventually some branches of a restaurant chain let their standards slip (hard for corporate to keep a close eye on hundreds of franchises) and the reputation of the whole chain begins to suffer.
Those with a vested interest will stand on the mountain tops and scream that it ain't so, but time will prove me right.
So see past the marketing efforts, use your eyes and your head and pick what is best WHERE YOU ARE.
Those just happen to be the things that people can make work in a MMA rule set
If someone could draw from Drunken monkey kung fu, and make it work in MMA more power to them, they are MMA fighters. But as of yet, no one has pulled it off. So everyone trains in the stuff that does work.
If someone could draw from Drunken monkey kung fu, and make it work in MMA more power to them, they are MMA fighters. But as of yet, no one has pulled it off. So everyone trains in the stuff that does work.
zDom
Senior Master
Those just happen to be the things that people can make work in a MMA rule set
If someone could draw from Drunken monkey kung fu, and make it work in MMA more power to them, they are MMA fighters. But as of yet, no one has pulled it off. So everyone trains in the stuff that does work.
Set aside the argument of "which techniques work" for the moment, if you don't mind, to consider this:
there isn't anything I have seen used effectively in a UFC match, for example, that I haven't seen and trained in my hapkido class.
Someone else might say the same about their Kenpo class, etc.
Same dish, different restaurants.
(Here is the part where Rook will say: "But MY restaurant fixes it BETTER!", neh?)
zDom
Senior Master
OK, now the "which techniques work" argument:
All the UFC fighters who are in the octagon "proving which techniques work" are
a) muscled up from a vigorous progressive resistance program
b) have the extremely low body fat usually only seen among professional athletes
c) trained, what, 4 to 8 hours per day to prepare for those matches? (I don't know -- most are not training 4 hours per week though, right?)
So this begs the question:
Do these same techniques work for:
a) middle aged woman?
b) 60-year old man?
c) overweight adolescent?
Could it be that all these techniques are heavily dependent on strength and cardiovascular endurance only found in top atheletes?
There are a lot of people out there who don't have the strength to pull off a body slam like Matt Hughes that could seriously benefit from learning a hip throw -- but the hip throw isn't on the list of "effective techniques" that are "proven in the ring" and focused on by MMA stylists, are they?
MMA is whittling down the list of techniques down to a short list that is "proven" by top athletes to be effective. But this short list may not be useable by Joe Average who just wants to learn to defend his weak, pudgy little body.
That is why I believe it is useful for instructors to teach a wide variety of techniques so that posterity can decide for themselves which techniques work for them.
All the UFC fighters who are in the octagon "proving which techniques work" are
a) muscled up from a vigorous progressive resistance program
b) have the extremely low body fat usually only seen among professional athletes
c) trained, what, 4 to 8 hours per day to prepare for those matches? (I don't know -- most are not training 4 hours per week though, right?)
So this begs the question:
Do these same techniques work for:
a) middle aged woman?
b) 60-year old man?
c) overweight adolescent?
Could it be that all these techniques are heavily dependent on strength and cardiovascular endurance only found in top atheletes?
There are a lot of people out there who don't have the strength to pull off a body slam like Matt Hughes that could seriously benefit from learning a hip throw -- but the hip throw isn't on the list of "effective techniques" that are "proven in the ring" and focused on by MMA stylists, are they?
MMA is whittling down the list of techniques down to a short list that is "proven" by top athletes to be effective. But this short list may not be useable by Joe Average who just wants to learn to defend his weak, pudgy little body.
That is why I believe it is useful for instructors to teach a wide variety of techniques so that posterity can decide for themselves which techniques work for them.
Ybot
Blue Belt
Do MMA athletes train a lot? Of course, that's what it takes to fight at that high level against pro athletes. To competitively compete at the highest levels of Olympic Tae Kwon Do how much do they train, though? To perform their amazing high, and arial kicks does that not rely on quite a bit of athletic training as well?
So this begs the question:
Do these same techniques work for:
a) middle aged woman?
b) 60-year old man?
c) overweight adolescent?
Sorry, had to go there.
You do have somewhat of a point here. Some techniques require some strength, though this is the case for traditional arts too. Do the same techniques work for the average Joe? Well... yes. You don't see every MMA athlete using body slams, and you do see some using hip throws (etc. Karo Parysian). MMA take their techniques from specialists in individual ranges of combat. in the case of your example it's takedowns. Lets say we take our takedowns from wrestling (folk style, Greco Roman, and freestyle). There are a wide variety of takedowns available in these disiplines to choose from, so an individual can pick and choose the ones that work best for them.
I also want to point out that not all of these athletes have your extreemly low body fat percentages though... Hell, BJ Penn probably fights much heavier than he should to get the best performance, but that doesn't stop him from being extreemly competitive at the weight he fights.
High levels of conditioning is just one part of an equation that people who train in MMA look at. Same equations exist in traditional martial arts too, but conditioning is often overlooked (not in all schools, I know) because they are trying to keep students and they don't want to run them off. Tell me that high levels of strength, and endurance are not benificial to traditional arts too.
zDom, here is my question. If, in your opinion, Hapkido is better then MMA, why do you go out of your way to prove that "it is MMA and has everything MMA has"?
Odin
2nd Black Belt
OP
OP
jkd friend
Green Belt
MMA could not be for the personal liberation of a person as JKD is for the simple fact of it being mechanical in part of being put together. The fact that it is said to an extention of jkd is wrong it is the endless journey to perfection that drives a jkd man. But mma is taking things that work but it seems that the ufc is the product of what works or don't work in the mma. But the simple truth is that it is about what works for the individual and what can make him better.
Odin
2nd Black Belt
huh?....wouldnt the UFC fighters all be individuals doing what works??
I think Matt Hughes would disagree that he is not on an 'endless journey of perfection''...i dont know bro your posts are really random.
Hmm. Restaurants tastes are subjective. We can objectively determine the better fighters by having them fight each other and then see who is left standing. If you want to see X technique, Y strategy, or Z style works well, someone (ussually several someones) has to suceed in using it on a consistant basis against other competitive fighters in RECORDED MATCHES (not legends or unrecorded stories).
