Bruce Lee!
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Ancient Greek Pankration and the OLD Jujitsu are two RECORDED examples. Necessity in olden times dictated that striking AND grappling be known for warfare survival, when devoid of an additional weapon. Technologys existance has caused a disservice of sorts that most people don't consider. Many of the recorded firsts are really only the FIRST recorded due to technology being around at the time of their existance. Predecessors of comparable quality preceded the techological distribution era and did not receive proper recognition in many cases, I would wager. "The victors of war are the authors of history", I believe it was said. What if the records describing Greek Pankration were kept secretive or destroyed? How many other systems and groups came and went throughout history that were as noteable as Pankration, Jujitsu and JKD that were not recorded or disclosed to the populace? We will never know. Jim Arvanitis was doing Modern Pankration in the late 1960s. If he were in Hollywood then, and Bruce Lee were on the East coast never seeking an acting career, would Arvanitis be considered the Grandfather of MMA instead? The wheel is reinvented time and again. Was Bruce Lee a great Martial Artist in my opinion? Yes. Was he the first to recombine elements that periodically have seperated throughout history? Most likely not. He was a genious that understood and developed an idea, on his own, that had already been done prior w/o his knowledge. No one has a patent on truth.
Another thought to ponder: If Bruce Lee was a quadrapelegic before developing JKD, would JKD exist? His physical capabilities/genetics were very good marketing tools. Would he have been able to convince anyone to any substantial extent, as to the value of his ideas w/o moving? How would he have gained such an audience?
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Another thought to ponder: If Bruce Lee was a quadrapelegic before developing JKD, would JKD exist? His physical capabilities/genetics were very good marketing tools. Would he have been able to convince anyone to any substantial extent, as to the value of his ideas w/o moving? How would he have gained such an audience?
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J
J-kid
Guest
Bruce lee was a actor , Not so much a figher as much as a Actor. Its what he did, He was no super martial artist. He was good but he was not the greatest in the world or anything even close.
But from what i could tell he was cool, I also like his movies.
But from what i could tell he was cool, I also like his movies.
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JK
Kind of like Ronald Reagan? The good acting skills enhanced the believability of his skills as a politician? Watching Bruces movies and studying his MA science texts, I feel that Bruce's acting was trailing well behind his MA skills myself.
How about his being the first in mixing up chop chop?
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p.s.
You know chop chop?
Kind of like Ronald Reagan? The good acting skills enhanced the believability of his skills as a politician? Watching Bruces movies and studying his MA science texts, I feel that Bruce's acting was trailing well behind his MA skills myself.
How about his being the first in mixing up chop chop?
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p.s.
You know chop chop?
Y
yilisifu
Guest
Most so-called "traditional styles" were once known (in their day) as MMA. Somebody combined this with some of that and developed something new.
Bruce Lee didn't want his "style" named. But it is.
Bruce wasn't the first and won't be the last. He might've been the first MMA stylist to star in movies, though.
:rofl:
Bruce Lee didn't want his "style" named. But it is.
Bruce wasn't the first and won't be the last. He might've been the first MMA stylist to star in movies, though.
:rofl:
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Brown Belt
Specifically one person? Jigoro Kano would qualify in my mind. He took the best techniques, from the best Jujitsu schools, and started his art of Judo. Strikes, throws, groundfighting, pressure points all were taught in the official kata and self defense. The randori (free sparring) concentrated/s on mainly standing and ground grappling though. An interesting thing, the Judo of old has been repeatedly spoken of as lost or too dilluted. BJJ escaped that fate, concerning their groundfighting, and this allows us a peek back in time at the original Judo ground game. Some contrast! What a difference in just a few generations! Is JKD or MMA headed for the same fate, I wonder?
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Ace,
Good points. The striking was practiced during kata and self defense only. So, if speaking in terms of tournament style competition only, Kano would not qualify. My next selection would be Jim Arvanitis of Modern Pankration fame. He was doing MMA in the late 60's. His framework is Freestyle/Greco Roman, Western Boxing, Muay Thai style kicks and Submissions from various grappling arts. He had a tournament style framework within his school/organization so the students could sharpen blending ranges/attributes with an uncooperative partner. He is one of the biggest MMA unsung heroes of modern times.
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Good points. The striking was practiced during kata and self defense only. So, if speaking in terms of tournament style competition only, Kano would not qualify. My next selection would be Jim Arvanitis of Modern Pankration fame. He was doing MMA in the late 60's. His framework is Freestyle/Greco Roman, Western Boxing, Muay Thai style kicks and Submissions from various grappling arts. He had a tournament style framework within his school/organization so the students could sharpen blending ranges/attributes with an uncooperative partner. He is one of the biggest MMA unsung heroes of modern times.
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J
JDenz
Guest
Good luck arguing with Primo about MMA lol.
J
JDenz
Guest
I know that is why I said good luck arguing with her
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Brown Belt
How about the Kajukenbo guys? I have not read about their history in a great deal of time, but they were men from different Martial Arts who studied together in Hawaii to create their own blend combining striking and grappling. I believe this took place in the 1940s. The name is a composite of Jujitsu, Karate, Kenpo, etc. Anyone else with more info., about Kajukenbo, that can assist?
Also, Jim Arvanitis being on the cover of Black Belt in 1971 does not mean he started in 1971.
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Also, Jim Arvanitis being on the cover of Black Belt in 1971 does not mean he started in 1971.
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OP
OP
ace
Master of Arts
The Subject of Kajukenbo has been discused here on
Martial Talk Before.
I have been doing some Reserch on as well
& Yes i find it to be verry well rounded.
But it is not credidt to 1 person
nor did it divide the arts in equal per por tions (spelled Wrong)
im sure.
For instance they do cosintrate for a more
Stand up Karate Type Art.
They realy do not practise Much Ground Or Grappling
even tho Judo/Ju Jutsu is sapose to be part of the art.
Note
-------
This is my personal Re serch as far as reading
& questioning people exposed to the art.
________________________________________--------------
Now as Far as Jim Goes No 1971 waz not
When he started, He is a great exampel of a Martial Artist
I take nothing from that He was a head of the Times
& has even refered to Bruce as a reason for this
Look up Black belt & inside Karate Mags.
U will run into the artical.
Martial Talk Before.
I have been doing some Reserch on as well
& Yes i find it to be verry well rounded.
But it is not credidt to 1 person
nor did it divide the arts in equal per por tions (spelled Wrong)
im sure.
For instance they do cosintrate for a more
Stand up Karate Type Art.
They realy do not practise Much Ground Or Grappling
even tho Judo/Ju Jutsu is sapose to be part of the art.
Note
-------
This is my personal Re serch as far as reading
& questioning people exposed to the art.
________________________________________--------------
Now as Far as Jim Goes No 1971 waz not
When he started, He is a great exampel of a Martial Artist
I take nothing from that He was a head of the Times
& has even refered to Bruce as a reason for this
Look up Black belt & inside Karate Mags.
U will run into the artical.
white belt
Brown Belt
Ace,
You are nullifying your own argument and traveling in a circle. If you are looking for an example of balance between striking and grappling in MMA, then Bruce Lee himself is a POOR EXAMPLE. Most of his art was centered around stand up and striking techniques. Most of that influence shifted from Wing Chun to Western Boxing. Just as "unbalanced" as Kajukenbo using mostly Karate. Lee did not have much grappling at all, compared to the striking, in the JKD he himself developed before his death. The grappling attributes were heavily added to after his death by others (BJJ, Pancrase, etc.). You mentioned in an earlier post that Kano does not qualify due to his heavy emphasis on throws in Randori and using Atemi Waza only in self defense and kata. Lee and Kano would then be the same, if using the "one more than the other" (more striking than grappling and vice versa) argument, when defining MMA. Also, Lee did not have a competition format set up for his JKD whereas most of the MMAs find this essential to prove or demonstrate their wares. Inosanto taught Bruce Philipino techs. Hartsell taught him wrestling techs. Yip Man taught him Wing Chun. Hayward Nishioka taught him Judo techs. Jack Dempsey shared Boxing techs. through distance communication and old fight footage. Bruce was being shown things by others to make his style. Kind of like Kajukenbo! Inosanto, Hartsell, James Lee etc. all taught something to Bruce and he in return shared his data collection back with them. The main Kempo stylist (Emperado?) did the same in Kajukenbo. You need to define YOUR definition of MMAs more clearly and see if it fits the JKD structure FIRST. You may be trying to compare apples and oranges here and defeating your quest. It's kind of like the courtroom trick of an Attorney asking a defendent "Have you stopped beating your wife?" and forcing him to answer with only a "yes or no" response. An innocent man is incriminated with either response! Please define your question more succinctly and I may be able to help you pin down an answer. If that is your real goal(?).
white belt
You are nullifying your own argument and traveling in a circle. If you are looking for an example of balance between striking and grappling in MMA, then Bruce Lee himself is a POOR EXAMPLE. Most of his art was centered around stand up and striking techniques. Most of that influence shifted from Wing Chun to Western Boxing. Just as "unbalanced" as Kajukenbo using mostly Karate. Lee did not have much grappling at all, compared to the striking, in the JKD he himself developed before his death. The grappling attributes were heavily added to after his death by others (BJJ, Pancrase, etc.). You mentioned in an earlier post that Kano does not qualify due to his heavy emphasis on throws in Randori and using Atemi Waza only in self defense and kata. Lee and Kano would then be the same, if using the "one more than the other" (more striking than grappling and vice versa) argument, when defining MMA. Also, Lee did not have a competition format set up for his JKD whereas most of the MMAs find this essential to prove or demonstrate their wares. Inosanto taught Bruce Philipino techs. Hartsell taught him wrestling techs. Yip Man taught him Wing Chun. Hayward Nishioka taught him Judo techs. Jack Dempsey shared Boxing techs. through distance communication and old fight footage. Bruce was being shown things by others to make his style. Kind of like Kajukenbo! Inosanto, Hartsell, James Lee etc. all taught something to Bruce and he in return shared his data collection back with them. The main Kempo stylist (Emperado?) did the same in Kajukenbo. You need to define YOUR definition of MMAs more clearly and see if it fits the JKD structure FIRST. You may be trying to compare apples and oranges here and defeating your quest. It's kind of like the courtroom trick of an Attorney asking a defendent "Have you stopped beating your wife?" and forcing him to answer with only a "yes or no" response. An innocent man is incriminated with either response! Please define your question more succinctly and I may be able to help you pin down an answer. If that is your real goal(?).
white belt
OP
OP
ace
Master of Arts
2nd Bruce Lee Had no Art Read it U will Know
There Was Great in sight into Judo,Juitsu
As well as Wrestling.
Also he speaks That when U Realy Under Stand There
Is no Art Only Human Expression.
Another Ask Gene Lebell About Bruce & Grappling
Or Wally Jay While Both Have Noted He was a Great striker
But A Verry Well Rounded Grappler.
Case Closed White Belt.
There Was Great in sight into Judo,Juitsu
As well as Wrestling.
Also he speaks That when U Realy Under Stand There
Is no Art Only Human Expression.
Another Ask Gene Lebell About Bruce & Grappling
Or Wally Jay While Both Have Noted He was a Great striker
But A Verry Well Rounded Grappler.
Case Closed White Belt.
Mod Note : Duplicate threads merged.
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Brown Belt
Ace,
Been there, done that on reading the "Tao of JKD". All you or any other person has to do is look closely at Bruce's curriculum for the people he taught. The curriculum is widely publicized in his books. His students also point out, in the books they published, MOSTLY striking concepts were taught by Bruce. The MINORITY of moves taught by Bruce personally are grappling. Ground grappling is treated with even LESS attention when compared with the clinch, throws or stand up grappling. Any curriculum taught by Bruce's main students, after his death, that has any extensive grappling draws upon another source or sources to fill in the gaps of circumstances not yet fully explored and given final evaluation by Bruce. If anything was added after Bruce's death, the 1st generation for the most part, do not call it Jun Fan JKD because it is not what Bruce taught. They call it their OWN personal JKD or they teach it seperately from the JKD taught by Bruce. This was one of the factors involved in the "Concepts" JKD splitting off from the "Original" JKD practicioners. The Concepts people include moves from BJJ, as well as other sources besides Bruce, to fill in gaps that became apparent when doing MMA. Bruce's work was largely incomplete at the time of his death and this is why you see greats like Erik Paulson studying Shooto, BJJ, etc. Erik's Jun Fan JKD lessons simply do not address some of the MMA circumstances that these grappling arts can and do.
Bruce Lee had the striking attributes to compete in the Octagon or Pride, but not near enough grappling attributes. His untimely death prevented this. So again I will repeat.......DEFINE your definition of MMAs. Thus far Arvanitis, Kano, Emperado AND Ji Han Jae precede Bruce under the vagueness of your question. If you disagree, DEFINE and then give FACTS to disprove these men. The mostly "this or that style" argument fails, because Bruce too could be categorized in this way, based on the history I have shared and what he taught. DEFINE MMA.
white belt
Been there, done that on reading the "Tao of JKD". All you or any other person has to do is look closely at Bruce's curriculum for the people he taught. The curriculum is widely publicized in his books. His students also point out, in the books they published, MOSTLY striking concepts were taught by Bruce. The MINORITY of moves taught by Bruce personally are grappling. Ground grappling is treated with even LESS attention when compared with the clinch, throws or stand up grappling. Any curriculum taught by Bruce's main students, after his death, that has any extensive grappling draws upon another source or sources to fill in the gaps of circumstances not yet fully explored and given final evaluation by Bruce. If anything was added after Bruce's death, the 1st generation for the most part, do not call it Jun Fan JKD because it is not what Bruce taught. They call it their OWN personal JKD or they teach it seperately from the JKD taught by Bruce. This was one of the factors involved in the "Concepts" JKD splitting off from the "Original" JKD practicioners. The Concepts people include moves from BJJ, as well as other sources besides Bruce, to fill in gaps that became apparent when doing MMA. Bruce's work was largely incomplete at the time of his death and this is why you see greats like Erik Paulson studying Shooto, BJJ, etc. Erik's Jun Fan JKD lessons simply do not address some of the MMA circumstances that these grappling arts can and do.
Bruce Lee had the striking attributes to compete in the Octagon or Pride, but not near enough grappling attributes. His untimely death prevented this. So again I will repeat.......DEFINE your definition of MMAs. Thus far Arvanitis, Kano, Emperado AND Ji Han Jae precede Bruce under the vagueness of your question. If you disagree, DEFINE and then give FACTS to disprove these men. The mostly "this or that style" argument fails, because Bruce too could be categorized in this way, based on the history I have shared and what he taught. DEFINE MMA.
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