The Value of training with odd-ball weapons

[Oily Dragon]

How did we get from the OP discussing oddball weapons as an intellectual problem solving exercise to two people (one with a meteor hammer) being together in a pitch black room, or even less likely, folks travelling along the Oregon Trail and dying from dysentery? i mean, sure, context matters, but we're getting into the realm of ridiculous here. Are we not?

It kind of depends on how familiar are you with Polynesian weapons. Also odd, obsolete and utterly lethal.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

the laws very clear you can carry anything that isnt a ''weapon'', they may ask you a lot of questions if you brain someone with your walking stick, but thats not at all the same as you being charged or convicted of it. theres case law that carrying screwdriver is OK, just in case you need to undo some screws, noy a weapon and no excuse for carry is required, that must extend to walking sticks
there no requirement that you have to have a bad leg to use a stick, non at all, lots of people use them for hiking AND who is to say your legs isnt sore that day ?

The issue is, it becomes a weapon very easily legally speaking. The point i raised was, if you use a piece of wood around you, you only have to justify the use of force, not then the carrying of the object. and then you are going to have to convince a magistrate of that or a jury pending what you get charged with.

Speaking in legalise here, if you dont have the object you dont have to justfy why you were carrying it.

I just finished up a hike where I used a walking stick. I don'thave a disability, it'snot necessary, and I didn't want to use it as a weapon. But I find that it helps prevent my legs from getting sore the next day.

Above, and that is probbly one of 2 reasons you would get a pretty much open and shut pass for carrying a stick, the second would be if you have a diagnosed and legitimate leg problem. (other than religious reasons but that gets really muddy and i only know of one that actually carries a weapon and thats a dagger)

 

[jobo]

The issue is, it becomes a weapon very easily legally speaking. The point i raised was, if you use a piece of wood around you, you only have to justify the use of force, not then the carrying of the object. and then you are going to have to convince a magistrate of that or a jury pending what you get charged with.

Speaking in legalise here, if you dont have the object you dont have to justfy why you were carrying it.



Above, and that is probbly one of 2 reasons you would get a pretty much open and shut pass for carrying a stick, the second would be if you have a diagnosed and legitimate leg problem. (other than religious reasons but that gets really muddy and i only know of one that actually carries a weapon and thats a dagger)

well its a faulty premise, your unlikely to find a suitable piece of wood lying about at the moment of attack unless your in a forest or a building site and even then you may not have the Warning you need to grab a piece

so the issue is, if you need a '' weapon''you need to have it in your hand or other wise close at hand, relying on total chance to find a weapon is stupid in the extreme

as ive pointed out you are perfectly entitled to have anything that isnt obviously a weapon on you in public, by obvious i mean it is design/sold or modified to be a weapon or a more effective weapon than its normal state, if you can walking into a hiking shop or mobility shop and buy that or a similar stick then that just fine and dandy

any questions will arise only after you have been attacked and successfully defended yourself, if you never attacked or you dont brain them with it, no one is going to ask you anything, if your skilled enough to attack limbs with it rather than wack them over the head with it, then its vanishingly unlikely anything will happen at all, your attackers isnt going to phone the police, is he, just limb off

instant arming is well established law, there are plenty of case law on it, you are extremely unlikely to be charged and even less likely to be convicted unless your stupid enough to admit it was carried as a weapon

even then you can carry things to use as a weapon against dog attacks say. there is absolute no need to have a bad leg to legitimately carry a walking stick, non at all and whos to say your leg isnt sore today ?

but lets be clear if you do use it to brain an attacker, its a conversation thats worth having as you have not been kicked unconscious or stabbed etal

ive been through this conversation after i wacked an attacker with a pool cue i was carrying, the conversation was not about carrying the pool cue, it was about who attacked who, my attacker was playing the victim and there was a distinct lack of independent witnesses

 

[Deleted member 39746]

instant arming is well established law, there are plenty of case law on it, you are extremely unlikely to be charged and even less likely to be convicted unless your stupid enough to admit it was carried as a weapon

didnt dispute that but this was pretty much my point.

If you arm yourself using a enviromental weapon you only have to justify your usage of force, if you carry it you have to jusitfy and get asked why you have X object. And if you imply for self defence at any point it becomes a weapon pretty much.

Also for another point above i have heard the attackers routinely do try and contact the police first to get the benefit of the doubt and also try and get you charged with being the attacker. (depends on how many witnesses etc, but if its just you and them more likely) Thats just a correction as that does actually happen.

 

[jobo]

didnt dispute that but this was pretty much my point.

If you arm yourself using a enviromental weapon you only have to justify your usage of force, if you carry it you have to jusitfy and get asked why you have X object. And if you imply for self defence at any point it becomes a weapon pretty much.

Also for another point above i have heard the attackers routinely do try and contact the police first to get the benefit of the doubt and also try and get you charged with being the attacker. (depends on how many witnesses etc, but if its just you and them more likely) Thats just a correction as that does actually happen.

i dont know what your finding hard to understand,,,, it will be very unlikely that there is an environmental weapon available when you need it, if you need one and there isnt then your stuffed, saying its better is nonsense if there isnt one, its clearly not better

you dont have to justify your carrying of a stick, you just dont, if they go down that line, they have to prove you INTENDED to use it as a weapon, you have nothing to justify or prove NOTHING, the more mundane the object the less chance they have of proving that and walking sticks are about as mundane as they come

you still have to justify your use of force, this is just the same an an environmental weapon.
if you want an innocent and quick to deploy weapon a folded up newspaper or a chain link belt are good as is a mobile phone charger battery

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Anyway.

Palm sticks, do any of you think thats a oddball weapon or not? I can think of a argument as to why and why not. Why not if more that its fighting style mimicks several diffrent weapons and also if your stick breaks and are stuck having to pummel with it. And also just pummeling with your stick.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Anyway.

Palm sticks, do any of you think thats a oddball weapon or not? I can think of a argument as to why and why not. Why not if more that its fighting style mimicks several diffrent weapons and also if your stick breaks and are stuck having to pummel with it. And also just pummeling with your stick.

Never heard of them, but a quick google search suggests they're the same as a kubotan, or holding a knife in pakal grip. Not oddball to me, and something you can turn a pen, scissor, key, or plenty of other things into.

 

[jobo]

Anyway.

Palm sticks, do any of you think thats a oddball weapon or not? I can think of a argument as to why and why not. Why not if more that its fighting style mimicks several diffrent weapons and also if your stick breaks and are stuck having to pummel with it. And also just pummeling with your stick.

they are right in the difficult to justify category,,,,,,, they are most certainly a weapon.

and i can see no set of circumstance where you walking stick will break hitting someone with it, if you want something like that then go for a mobile phone charging battery, clearly not a weapon but will do exactly the same job, but better

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they are right in the difficult to justify category,,,,,,, they are most certainly a weapon.

and i can see no set of circumstance where you walking stick will break hitting someone with it, if you want something like that then go for a mobile phone charging battery, clearly not a weapon but will do exactly the same job, but better

I’m trying to picture that. Do you mean the rectangular charging packs? It seems those would be used much differently from something like a kubotan.

 

[jobo]

I’m trying to picture that. Do you mean the rectangular charging packs? It seems those would be used much differently from something like a kubotan.

im taking about the ones that are 4/5 inches long and slim enough to fit in your fist, you can only strike one way with them( unless there are longer ones) , but then they weigh half a pound or so, so a hit will certainly hurt you can also tape a usb cable to them , so it doesnt get lost and you have a fairly effective flail

 

[Steve]

im taking about the ones that are 4/5 inches long and slim enough to fit in your fist, you can only strike one way with them( unless there are longer ones) , but then they weigh half a pound or so, so a hit will certainly hurt you can also tape a usb cable to them , so it doesnt get lost and you have a fairly effective flail

Like this?

 

[jobo]

Like this?

yes, but mines a bit squarer, that looks better to be honest, though perhaps not as heavy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

im taking about the ones that are 4/5 inches long and slim enough to fit in your fist, you can only strike one way with them( unless there are longer ones) , but then they weigh half a pound or so, so a hit will certainly hurt you can also tape a usb cable to them , so it doesnt get lost and you have a fairly effective flail

Yeah, those’d probably do most of the same stuff.

 

[Danny T]

Anyway.

Palm sticks, do any of you think thats a oddball weapon or not? I can think of a argument as to why and why not. Why not if more that its fighting style mimicks several diffrent weapons and also if your stick breaks and are stuck having to pummel with it. And also just pummeling with your stick.

Flashlight such as in the photo makes a great accessory for being able to see in the dark as well as a palm stick

 

[Oily Dragon]

im taking about the ones that are 4/5 inches long and slim enough to fit in your fist, you can only strike one way with them( unless there are longer ones) , but then they weigh half a pound or so, so a hit will certainly hurt you can also tape a usb cable to them , so it doesnt get lost and you have a fairly effective flail

A flail tipped with an explosive lithium ion battery.

Ingenious.

 

[jobo]

A flail tipped with an explosive lithium ion battery.

Ingenious.

a lithium ion battery.has an energy density not far off TNT, unfortunately devising a trigger mechanism has so far defeated me

 

[geezer]

they are right in the difficult to justify category,,,,,,, they are most certainly a weapon.

and i can see no set of circumstance where you walking stick will break hitting someone with it, if you want something like that then go for a mobile phone charging battery, clearly not a weapon but will do exactly the same job, but better

Heck you might as well just use the cell phone itself as a weapon. It's not much, but works about as well as a "palm stick". And if you bust it? Well if it saves you a beating followed by a trip to the ER, you've at least broken even.

For Jobo and any other Brits, Canadians, and Aussies on here, in the US a trip to the ER will often cost you more than a cell phone. I think I was out nearly $800 when I took my daughter in a couple of years back to be checked for falling and banging her head (the first stop at urgent care was cheap enough, but they referred me to the ER to check for concussion). Most cell phones don't cost more than that!

 

[Brian King]

Heck you might as well just use the cell phone itself as a weapon. It's not much, but works about as well as a "palm stick". And if you bust it? Well if it saves you a beating followed by a trip to the ER, you've at least broken even.

For Jobo and any other Brits, Canadians, and Aussies on here, in the US a trip to the ER will often cost you more than a cell phone. I think I was out nearly $800 when I took my daughter in a couple of years back to be checked for falling and banging her head (the first stop at urgent care was cheap enough, but they referred me to the ER to check for concussion). Most cell phones don't cost more than that!

@geezer, two of the cell phone classes we sometimes ran that you might adapt to your use. The students always appreciated both. One was drilling with a cell phone in your hand (older broken or not usable phones) that could be used if wished or protected also if wished. It was always interesting for the students to notice the difference of the movements with something in their hand (also would use their valuable necklaces/ crucifixes held very loosely in their hands to force different thinking and movement). Working with something valuable and/or fragile forces a different view of regular habitual movement.

Another very fun drill was to have a student using their cell phone call somebody they know and have a engaging conversation while doing drills, they were not allowed to tell the person that they were in class and drilling. This forced them to try to keep their breathing even and forced them to focus on the conversation while defending themselves. It was/is difficult for some but most got the hang of it after awhile. We often did this as a multiple person type of drill with two or three attackers (attackers would either attack one at a time or whenever depending on experience of caller) It sure pointed out breath holding and forced exhalation that many had developed as a bad habit.

Regards
Brian King