The Value of training with odd-ball weapons

[Danny T]

They are obsolete! But you may need them so they aren't obsolete you just don't need as many so they are obsolete. LOL!!

 

[jobo]

Civlian usage is just wacky, but good luck with specfically Japanese weapons, they are usually the focus of bans etc. (the bulk of weapons on the list in the U.K are Japanese, or were done because of japanese weapons) At least for some western countries.

The great thing about some of the laws etc civilians get, is the fact there are usually loopholes, so all sorts of wacky creations or reasons crop up to exploit the loopholes. eg Wrist braces being used as stocks so its not technically a SBR. Its just intresting what people can come up with, same with improvised firearms and weapons in general.

thats disingenuous, in THE UK ALL weapons are banned in public, with out some in-transit or police excuse, some weapons are doubly banned and some triply banned. but they are all banned

the only loop hole as you put it, is ( in public)'' instant arming'' were you find an everyday object that isnt normally consider a weapon comes to hand at your time of need.

walking canes being a classic example

 

[jobo]

They are obsolete! But you may need them so they aren't obsolete you just don't need as many so they are obsolete. LOL!!

ive got an obsolete mircowave that i use as a bread bin, that it comes in handy for a use it wasnt designed for doesn't mean its not now obsolete

america has 1.3 MILLION active troops, an army that size is obsolete, if all your going to do is invade tin pot nations full of goat herders or if a real war actually arises they are mostly all dead in the first couple of hours, before they can even get the tanks filled up with fuel and moving

having a standing army capable of fighting a world war, is indeed obsolete, if as seems likely there wont be one in at least the medium term or if there is, they nuke you of at least ballistic missile your army to bits, whilst they are still lacing their boots. AMERICA IS NOT OUT OF RANGE ANYMORE

 

[Deleted member 39746]

They are obsolete! But you may need them so they aren't obsolete you just don't need as many so they are obsolete. LOL!!

Thats what i thought he wrote. Numbers cannot be obsolete, you need as many as you need. And then you can get as many as you can affford. Its a 10/10 strawman though. Same with below.

thats disingenuous, in THE UK ALL weapons are banned in public, with out some in-transit or police excuse, some weapons are doubly banned and some triply banned. but they are all banned

Re read what i wrote, the statement was banned weapons, thus the banned weapons list. Of which there are only 19 listed items. (at least on the list that you can find publically) They key word here is BANNED, NOT restricted. You cannot buy, sell, import, export, own or possess anything on that list. (defences and exemptions apply, but depends on the act/bill that banned them) Where as the restricted items you mention, are only restricted in public. (and then depends on the item in question as to specfics)

 

[Steve]

Obsolete is contextual. You, me, a dark room, and my meteor hammer means I have the state of the art, and you're probably gonna die.

How did we get from the OP discussing oddball weapons as an intellectual problem solving exercise to two people (one with a meteor hammer) being together in a pitch black room, or even less likely, folks travelling along the Oregon Trail and dying from dysentery? i mean, sure, context matters, but we're getting into the realm of ridiculous here. Are we not?

 

[jobo]

Thats what i thought he wrote. Numbers cannot be obsolete, you need as many as you need. And then you can get as many as you can affford. Its a 10/10 strawman though. Same with below.





Re read what i wrote, the statement was banned weapons, thus the banned weapons list. Of which there are only 19 listed items. (at least on the list that you can find publically) They key word here is BANNED, NOT restricted. You cannot buy, sell, import, export, own or possess anything on that list. (defences and exemptions apply, but depends on the act/bill that banned them) Where as the restricted items you mention, are only restricted in public. (and then depends on the item in question as to specfics)

there are no weapons that are BANNED to own in the uk9(well nuclear bomb and bio weapons and IED and assault rifles perhaps), some require a licence, which you probably wont get, but that not the same as being banned,
the list i think you mean, doesn't ban ownership, just the import selling( and possibly reselling), so a least most of the weapons on the list are fine in your own home, you can even have a flame thrower if you can get them to give you a licence

perhaps you posted the law your referring to i could be clearer

 

[geezer]

Weird weapons are my favorite kind.
This thing is bizarre, but still devastatingly effective, like the name suggests.

Aside from some minor cultural details that make the "Meteor Hammer" seem "bizarre" to us, this is an ancient and common category of flexible weapons with weighted ends, like a manriki kusari, an Argentine Gaucho's bolo, a slinger, who when overrun could use the sling and rock in H2H (striking with the rock still in the pouch), or just beating somebody with a bar of soap in a long tube-sock.

Here's a scene from the old move "Martín Fierro" (1:44:30 - 1:46:00) were the gaucho Fierro, armed with facón (long knife) y poncho, fights a Mapuche (Araucano) with his bolo.

 

[geezer]

Speaking of unusual weapons (that are really not unusual at all) consider the use of the poncho in the previous clip. The gaucho's style of fighting owed a lot to Spanish methods, and in old European fencing, a cape or cloak was often used in combination with a knife or sword. HEMA practitioners often play with that today.

Here's some guys in Argentina working to preserve the old gaucho methods (Escrima Criollo):

And here's Vigo Mortensen briefly using a cape in a duel in Capitán Alatriste (1:45-2:05):

Here's a self-defense enthusiast adapting these ideas to fit contemporary clothing:

 

[geezer]

...in THE UK ALL weapons are banned in public ...the only loop hole as you put it, is ( in public)'' instant arming'' were you find an everyday object that isnt normally consider a weapon comes to hand at your time of need ...walking canes being a classic example

^^^^ That's what we are (or originally were) talking about here. Thanks for getting back on topic, guys!

...Training with "oddball" things, (traditional, "obsolete", or just "improvised") can be very usefull. So, if you can use a short staff well, then you can use a cane, an umbrella, a broom handle, a piece of 2 x2, a length of rebar, pipe, or similar construction debris, etc. etc. more handily than if untrained. Similarly, working with less intuitive shapes like the PR-24 / tonfa, flexible weapons, articles of clothing like a jacket, or perhaps a woman using her spiked high heeled shoes (you can't run in the darned things anyway, or so I'm told) ...that's what this thread was about.

 

[Buka]

How did we get from the OP discussing oddball weapons as an intellectual problem solving exercise to two people (one with a meteor hammer) being together in a pitch black room, or even less likely, folks travelling along the Oregon Trail and dying from dysentery? i mean, sure, context matters, but we're getting into the realm of ridiculous here. Are we not?

Oh, I don't know, I kind of like it, brings me back to my catechism classes as a youngin'. Buncha guys, sitting around a table, complaining the fish doesn't go with the wine, downing shots in toasts to the Oregon Trail, the music of Pontius Pilot and the Naildrivers coming from the Bose, all the while the boys passing around a meteor hammer bong under the table so the gals in the other room don't yell at them.

Yes, I know that's the realm of the ridiculous - because you KNOW the girls are going to yell at them anyway.

 

[Steve]

Aside from some minor cultural details that make the "Meteor Hammer" seem "bizarre" to us, this is an ancient and common category of flexible weapons with weighted ends, like a manriki kusari, an Argentine Gaucho's bolo, a slinger, who when overrun could use the sling and rock in H2H (striking with the rock still in the pouch), or just beating somebody with a bar of soap in a long tube-sock.

Here's a scene from the old move "Martín Fierro" (1:44:30 - 1:46:00) were the gaucho Fierro, armed with facón (long knife) y poncho, fights a Mapuche (Araucano) with his bolo.

Okay. How did you happen to come across that movie? I have to know how a movie that obscure made it into your life.

 

[Steve]

Oh, I don't know, I kind of like it, brings me back to my catechism classes as a youngin'. Buncha guys, sitting around a table, complaining the fish doesn't go with the wine, downing shots in toasts to the Oregon Trail, the music of Pontius Pilot and the Naildrivers coming from the Bose, all the while the boys passing around a meteor hammer bong under the table so the gals in the other room don't yell at them.

Yes, I know that's the realm of the ridiculous - because you KNOW the girls are going to yell at them anyway.

Boy, does THAT bring back the old days.

 

[jobo]

^^^^ That's what we are (or originally were) talking about here. Thanks for getting back on topic, guys!

...Training with "oddball" things, (traditional, "obsolete", or just "improvised") can be very usefull. So, if you can use a short staff well, then you can use a cane, an umbrella, a broom handle, a piece of 2 x2, a length of rebar, pipe, or similar construction debris, etc. etc. more handily than if untrained. Similarly, working with less intuitive shapes like the PR-24 / tonfa, flexible weapons, articles of clothing like a jacket, or perhaps a woman using her spiked high heeled shoes (you can't run in the darned things anyway, or so I'm told) ...that's what this thread was about.

i once beat someone unconscious with a small tin of spam in a plastic bag, which was my lunch, honest officer

 

[geezer]

Okay. How did you happen to come across that movie? I have to know how a movie that obscure made it into your life.

It's based on the classic work of gaucho literature, a long poem by the late 19th Century Argentine writer José Hernandez. I probably had to read an excerpt in high school, or maybe college. Later I watched the move.

These days "I can't remember what I had for breakfast." ....OK, actually, I can today.... but generally it does take me longer to learn new stuff like forms, drills, training sequences, etc. On the other hand, I can remember old stuff like this, no problem. Especially the fight scenes ...like the way the Mapuche Indian grabs one end of the bolo with his toes for greater control. That would have been natural for the poor, shoeless mestizo gauchos and the pure-blooded Indians they often fought. Not so much for modern people raised their whole life wearing shoes, like these guys:

BTW - Nice little disarm at the end of this. Maybe I should also post it down on the FMA thread on "defanging the snake"?

 

[geezer]

i once beat someone unconscious with a small tin of spam in a plastic bag, which was my lunch, honest officer

Good Lord Jobo, that's utterly brutal! Like something the psychotic character "Rorschach" in "The Watchmen" would do.

So what is wrong with me that I find that impressive? Anyway, thanks for sharing.

BTW - That just goes to show, Spam really is as versatile as they say!

 

[isshinryuronin]

Interesting videos, all. They say "Necessity is the mother of invention." I guess nothing is more necessary than survival, hence the many ingenious uses of "non-weapon" weapons being adapted and developed. From farm tools to walking aids, to ponchos being used in a pinch, and actual working, to save some guy's life. So he thinks "awesome" and practices with that item and it gets incorporated into whatever martial art he's into.

In hot and humid Okinawa, the fishermen just wore loincloths. Not much to strip off and use as a weapon. (Yes, several jokes can come into play here.) But they did have oars (eku). There are a few katas that teach to use it as a weapon. Another thing they had was sand, and using the oar to flip it into the opponent's face is one of the techniques. I have seen bo katas using the same idea. I have even seen an empty hand kata where a handful of sand or dirt is thrown to the face as well. So, even dirt can be an "oddball" weapon. There's plenty, and it's cheap, too.

Let's expand the concept. (Not to stray, and please forgive if I get too involved in my revelations) These aren't weapons, but weapon enhancers: Taking the high ground, back to the sun, keeping the rocks or mud to your weak side. The point I'm trying to make is this: In survival, there are few things that are unimportant. Anything, and everything available that can be useful should be employed. If starving in the wilderness, "non-food" things suddenly become food.

Just as many people have starved in the woods, where food was under their very feet (they just didn't recognize it as food), no doubt people have died by not recognizing things that could have helped them defend themselves. Many people don't recognize how their body parts can be effectively employed as weapons as well. For them, an elbow or forehead may be an oddball weapon.

By perception of your assets, a will to survive and training, nothing is "oddball."

If it saves my life, I will not insult it by calling it "oddball."

 

[Deleted member 39746]

^^^^ That's what we are (or originally were) talking about here. Thanks for getting back on topic, guys!

...Training with "oddball" things, (traditional, "obsolete", or just "improvised") can be very usefull. So, if you can use a short staff well, then you can use a cane, an umbrella, a broom handle, a piece of 2 x2, a length of rebar, pipe, or similar construction debris, etc. etc. more handily than if untrained. Similarly, working with less intuitive shapes like the PR-24 / tonfa, flexible weapons, articles of clothing like a jacket, or perhaps a woman using her spiked high heeled shoes (you can't run in the darned things anyway, or so I'm told) ...that's what this thread was about.

Yeah, i did not mean for that tangent to go on for that long. I honestly dont see much qualm with training with sticks and knives as they arent really obsolete anymore, they are closer to being put in a auxiliary role. (there are others as well)

That point is not as solid as he made out though, as the qustions would flood in as to why you had XYZ, especially if its a item that is basically a weapon (cane for example) and you dont have a walking issue. You would easily get away with it for something like a torch, phone coin purse etc. If anything legally here you are better off grabbing a enviromental weapon if you deem it nessisary for your defence than using something on your person.

In a similar vein to this i like the concept of firearms training even if you cant carry them, one because i like firearms and its fun. Two, appreciation for their usage to devise tactics and reactions to them, three if you end up disarming somone so you can use their weapon against them. For the second point, firearms tactics classes seem to give you the best defensive education for firearms as well despite principly being about using a firearm in those sitations.


Somethings just are usless to learn how to use, they are too specfic and wont be worked into a complete system for you to find much use out of them, that or you would end up having to adapt it to the weapon you have. ie longsword, you can adapt that to many objects, but of those many objects there might be a more direct application like quaterstaff or short staff.

Just as many people have starved in the woods, where food was under their very feet (they just didn't recognize it as food), no doubt people have died by not recognizing things that could have helped them defend themselves. Many people don't recognize how their body parts can be effectively employed as weapons as well. For them, an elbow or forehead may be an oddball weapon.

Read this out of context firstly, but there are several sayings for this. That principly revolve around unless you know, leave it alone. Fungus for example as a food is something you are advised to leave alone unless you are confident in Iding as it could very easily kill you. You also should fight how you know how to fight. im not against picking up a piece of wood and smashing it over someones head if you need to though and would advise people do that irrespective if they have done a quater staff class. I always found it slightly amusing when you mention say smashing a lamp over somones head and somone tells you "you should seek training in that". Well, one who even does weapons anymore in this day and age for real life use? And two, who the hell who does it would cover smashing a lamp over somones head?

 

[jobo]

Yeah, i did not mean for that tangent to go on for that long. I honestly dont see much qualm with training with sticks and knives as they arent really obsolete anymore, they are closer to being put in a auxiliary role. (there are others as well)

That point is not as solid as he made out though, as the qustions would flood in as to why you had XYZ, especially if its a item that is basically a weapon (cane for example) and you dont have a walking issue. You would easily get away with it for something like a torch, phone coin purse etc. If anything legally here you are better off grabbing a enviromental weapon if you deem it nessisary for your defence than using something on your person.

In a similar vein to this i like the concept of firearms training even if you cant carry them, one because i like firearms and its fun. Two, appreciation for their usage to devise tactics and reactions to them, three if you end up disarming somone so you can use their weapon against them. For the second point, firearms tactics classes seem to give you the best defensive education for firearms as well despite principly being about using a firearm in those sitations.


Somethings just are usless to learn how to use, they are too specfic and wont be worked into a complete system for you to find much use out of them, that or you would end up having to adapt it to the weapon you have. ie longsword, you can adapt that to many objects, but of those many objects there might be a more direct application like quaterstaff or short staff.



Read this out of context firstly, but there are several sayings for this. That principly revolve around unless you know, leave it alone. Fungus for example as a food is something you are advised to leave alone unless you are confident in Iding as it could very easily kill you. You also should fight how you know how to fight. im not against picking up a piece of wood and smashing it over someones head if you need to though and would advise people do that irrespective if they have done a quater staff class. I always found it slightly amusing when you mention say smashing a lamp over somones head and somone tells you "you should seek training in that". Well, one who even does weapons anymore in this day and age for real life use? And two, who the hell who does it would cover smashing a lamp over somones head?

the laws very clear you can carry anything that isnt a ''weapon'', they may ask you a lot of questions if you brain someone with your walking stick, but thats not at all the same as you being charged or convicted of it. theres case law that carrying screwdriver is OK, just in case you need to undo some screws, noy a weapon and no excuse for carry is required, that must extend to walking sticks
there no requirement that you have to have a bad leg to use a stick, non at all, lots of people use them for hiking AND who is to say your legs isnt sore that day ?

 

[jobo]

Interesting videos, all. They say "Necessity is the mother of invention." I guess nothing is more necessary than survival, hence the many ingenious uses of "non-weapon" weapons being adapted and developed. From farm tools to walking aids, to ponchos being used in a pinch, and actual working, to save some guy's life. So he thinks "awesome" and practices with that item and it gets incorporated into whatever martial art he's into.

In hot and humid Okinawa, the fishermen just wore loincloths. Not much to strip off and use as a weapon. (Yes, several jokes can come into play here.) But they did have oars (eku). There are a few katas that teach to use it as a weapon. Another thing they had was sand, and using the oar to flip it into the opponent's face is one of the techniques. I have seen bo katas using the same idea. I have even seen an empty hand kata where a handful of sand or dirt is thrown to the face as well. So, even dirt can be an "oddball" weapon. There's plenty, and it's cheap, too.

Let's expand the concept. (Not to stray, and please forgive if I get too involved in my revelations) These aren't weapons, but weapon enhancers: Taking the high ground, back to the sun, keeping the rocks or mud to your weak side. The point I'm trying to make is this: In survival, there are few things that are unimportant. Anything, and everything available that can be useful should be employed. If starving in the wilderness, "non-food" things suddenly become food.

Just as many people have starved in the woods, where food was under their very feet (they just didn't recognize it as food), no doubt people have died by not recognizing things that could have helped them defend themselves. Many people don't recognize how their body parts can be effectively employed as weapons as well. For them, an elbow or forehead may be an oddball weapon.

By perception of your assets, a will to survive and training, nothing is "oddball."

If it saves my life, I will not insult it by calling it "oddball."

its worth noting that the current India/ china border fighting involves thousands of troops per side fighting with clubs with spikes in ETAL. because guns are banned by agreement but beating people to death with reinforcing bar isnt, so carry on

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, i did not mean for that tangent to go on for that long. I honestly dont see much qualm with training with sticks and knives as they arent really obsolete anymore, they are closer to being put in a auxiliary role. (there are others as well)

That point is not as solid as he made out though, as the qustions would flood in as to why you had XYZ, especially if its a item that is basically a weapon (cane for example) and you dont have a walking issue. You would easily get away with it for something like a torch, phone coin purse etc. If anything legally here you are better off grabbing a enviromental weapon if you deem it nessisary for your defence than using something on your person.

the laws very clear you can carry anything that isnt a ''weapon'', they may ask you a lot of questions if you brain someone with your walking stick, but thats not at all the same as you being charged or convicted of it. theres case law that carrying screwdriver is OK, just in case you need to undo some screws, noy a weapon and no excuse for carry is required, that must extend to walking sticks
there no requirement that you have to have a bad leg to use a stick, non at all, lots of people use them for hiking AND who is to say your legs isnt sore that day ?

I just finished up a hike where I used a walking stick. I don'thave a disability, it'snot necessary, and I didn't want to use it as a weapon. But I find that it helps prevent my legs from getting sore the next day.