The value of elbows and knees.

[cfr]

***Disclaimer: Im still pretty new to MA. If Im totally wrong about all this then I apologize in advance. ***

I was wondering what some of you might think about this. I love to train elbows and knees. The reason is not because I think they are better tools than others, but because it seems that alot of MA guys dont train them very often. What I mean by this is that it seems like lots of schools show how they are done, test on them, and then forget about them. It seems like so few of the students actually incorporate them into their own training arsenals. This is just my newbie to MA opinion based on the schools Ive either belonged to or checked out when on the hunt for a new one. If Im correct in this thinkng (which I may be waaaaayyyy out in left field about) then they would be excellent tools for survival. Even against lots of experienced MA guys. I dont really beleive that this style is better than that one. I beleive that fighter 1 needs to be better at his style than fighter 2 in order to be victorious. It seems like lots of MA guys are used to seeing lots of different hand strikes and kicks and they know how to block them. But it seems like relatively few would know how to react if the opponent got in close and started to fire off elbow and knee combos. Personally I train elbows and knees once a week on a heavy bag and as often as I can get my instuctor to train them in class. We go through phases where we do them every class and then we wont do them for a while.
Whats your take?

 

[arnisador]

In JKD, HKE (heads, knees, and elbows) are stressed.

They're used to good effect in Muay Thai!

 

[pknox]

In the clinching phase of combat, elbows and knees are some of the most effective weapons in your arsenal. As arnisador said, look at Muay Thai -- those guys use elbows and knees as effective as anyone. If they've been trained well, and are somewhat conditioned, they are an asset in grappling as well -- you can use them as pivot points, and an aid to your balance on the ground. More mobility means more versatility, and ultimately more options for victory.

 

[7starmantis]

We use a wide variety of elbows and knees in mantis kung fu as well. In fact, I would say that many, if not most of our attacks will use an elbow or knee, or both. If not used for the attack, used as a break or lock against the opponents elbow or knee.

7sm

 

[pesilat]

All the stuff I do (Kali, Silat, Kuntao Silat, and Shen Chuan) use a lot of elbows and knees, too

Each has its own flavor when using them (and in general), but they use them. The Silat that I do, especially, uses them pretty heavily.

Mike

 

[grimfang]

The perception that many schools do not teach/practice use of knees and elbows might be because of the large number of tournyments that do not allow knee/elbow strikes. In a school that focuses heavily on competition tourneyments, the tendancy would be to avoid spending a great deal of time on techniques/tactics that are not allowed in competition.

My own opinion: if it works, practice it and use it. Many schools do not practice bites, but they work.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by pesilat
All the stuff I do (Kali, Silat, Kuntao Silat, and Shen Chuan) use a lot of elbows and knees, too

Each has its own flavor when using them (and in general), but they use them. The Silat that I do, especially, uses them pretty heavily.

Mike

Yes. And from what I remember of Silat (I was exposed to some Maphilindo) it's some pretty nasty stuff.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pknox
Yes. And from what I remember of Silat (I was exposed to some Maphilindo) it's some pretty nasty stuff.

LOL. Yup. "Nasty" is where most of the Silat I've trained in really likes to live.

Mike

 

[shadowninjakat]

I personally like to use elbows. However, my elbow is pretty bony so it is more devastating than my punch. Its really just your personal style wether or not you use elbows and knees when you fight. Just like it determines wether you would rather run away or stay and fight.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I enjoy useing elbows and knees, and I used to bite (when I ha teeth) but they must be used with caution just like any other tech.
Many schools do not allow them because of being UNPADED and it might hurt someone

 

[MJS]

i think that they are great!! I'm not the worlds greatest puncher and personally I'd rather not stand there and trade punches with someone whos better, so in that case, I'd prefer to get to the clinch position, where I can use the elbows and knees, and grappling. Also, its a harder surface than your hand so they are not going to break as easy. Like some of the others posted, Muay Thai fighters use them alot and obviously they make them work!

Mike

 

[Trent]

Elbows and knees are an absolute must in HTH. I've used them to great effect in the past. Silat and Kuntao use them quite extensively, each with their own flavor.

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Elbows and knees are very prevalent in every type of Kenpo that I have been privy to. American Kenpo is my MA of choice and I love to do elbows and knees. You would find just as many elbows and knees in Kenpo techniques as you would punches and kicks. We do just about every kind of elbow strike there is. Some of the knee strikes may not be recognized as strikes as they are shown as knee checks. Any knee check can be made into a knee strike. We also do the more conventional knees strikes as well. We have a saying that goes "You can step in, you can knee in or you can kick in". All this means is if I am going to close the distance on my attacker I can either simply step to the inside or I can knee to step to get inside or I can kick to step to get to the inside. You can even Knee to kick to step to get to the inside. The Bottom line is it depends on your range and what you want to do.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[pknox]

Another advantage of using elbows and knees is that while they may cause more injury to your attacker then when using hands or feet, they are a bit harder than hands and feet, and less susceptible to being injured when they hit someone. I have heard of numerous cases in which someone has broken parts of their hand when punching someone in the face; I have never heard of anyone fracturing their knee or elbow when doing the same. While I can imagine that it does happen, I would think the rate of incidence would be lower.

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by pknox
Another advantage of using elbows and knees is that while they may cause more injury to your attacker then when using hands or feet, they are a bit harder than hands and feet, and less susceptible to being injured when they hit someone. I have heard of numerous cases in which someone has broken parts of their hand when punching someone in the face; I have never heard of anyone fracturing their knee or elbow when doing the same. While I can imagine that it does happen, I would think the rate of incidence would be lower.

Its actually pretty easy to crack the surface bones on the tip of the elbow and generally those are the ones that do the best shearing damage, but because the trapping and elbow range is so sloppy most people end up hitting on the arm a little down the way from the bone tip. This is softer, more bulky and displaces force better, making it harder to injure but also harder to do significant damage. The knee is a large area surface and also displaces force better, but it has a ton of force behind it (hips, gluts, quads). A nice thing about the knee also is that when it is bent all the components that make up the knee (mainly the petella) are essentially locked into place making it really hard to damage.

I think that sometimes knees, elbows and head butts are are given only cursory coverage in curricullums (alliteration anyone) because they are range restrictive. If your style is generally outside range or largo then KEH aren't too useful except in defense.

 

[Franc0]

I've found that elbows and knees are the more devastating, and yet easiest to apply tools in my arsenal. They require a minimal amount of energy and movement to cause an adequate amount of damage. In smothering an opponent, all I have to do is walk to land some good knee shots to the legs, which hurts like a mutha!

 

[RanaHarmamelda]

The Tai Chi I've studied uses a lot of Elbows. Not much in the way of knees, but a lot of elbows -- can get a lot of power in with them, through your hips/shoulders.

The TKD I recently quit from also uses a lot of elbows, but only for breaking boards -- they don't work knees at all, and don't allow either in sparring.

The first TKD place, however, while it didn't actually work with knees, allowed tham, and we did do some elbow strikes -- of interest is the fact that elbows figure prominently into 1 or 2 of the Taeguk(?) series of forms.

So, yah -- elbows and knees are likely found in some form in most every system, because they are definitely effective. Work them much.

Especially if you're short like me.

 

[someguy]

they are ok
just antoher tool to me
but i love using knees to block

 

[Karazenpo]

The Calibre Press, as I stated in other posts have been putting on police survival seminars along with videos and books since the 80's. They work from reality based situations and have had some martial arts icons on their staff as advisors (one that comes to mind is Dan Inosanto). They call the rapid execution of elbows and knees as a "tactical blitz". They stated at their seminars and in their books that a tactical blitz (elbows & knees) will get you out of an otherwise no win scenerio 90 per cent of the time. A real life situation was cited where a petite female police officer broke an arrestee's jaw (6' 200lb. male) when he attempted to assault her in the booking room. Yes, it was one on one! Accidents I have seen while teaching over the years, two come to mind with elbows. Both sent the upper teeth through the chin just under the lip. One was a very petite woman and was an orange belt another was an average male who, I think at the time was a blue belt. So I guess you could say I have to go along with the above posters, lol.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

A lot of styles have elbows and knees...but many don't train them with any inspiration or emphasis. They're in the kata, maybe in a "one step" or self defense scenario, but they're not drilled all that effectively.

Muay Thai and styles like Combat Submission Wrestling (Erik Paulson's method) drill them well, particularly from the clinch. This stuff is some of the best drilling and application I've ever seen. If you've never been in the clinch with someone good at this stuff...well, its Hellish.

Filipino martial arts have some nice drills and applications for them. Their limb destructions with knees and elbows are pretty zippy.

Traditional stylists who have those knees and elbows in their form, but find application and drills lacking, would get alot out of cross training in those systems. They'd be taking what you already know and putting a different spin on it that you'd likely find refreshing.

Some people will pad up with FIST gear or "Redman" suits and the stuff Tony Blauer puts out..."High Gear?"...and then they hammer away with the knees and elbows. This is a great way for traditional arts to apply the elbows and knees found in their systems. Great gear. Very expensive, but the High Gear in particular might be worth the investment.



Regards,

Steve Scott