The Sensei-Senpai Relationship

[Xue Sheng]

From Martial Journal

The Sensei-Senpai Relationship in Traditional Karate: A Study of Respect, Responsibility, and Growth​

 

[Gyakuto]

Basically, Mr Miyagi/Daniel LaRusso.

It’s a nice notion but the article’s definitions are far too idealised much akin to describing the perfect father and son relationship: vanishingly rare.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The sensei / senpai or senpai / kohai relationships are more in tune with the traditional karate dojo, where so much more is taught than just how to punch and kick and block. It is not commonly seen in the West to the best of my knowledge.

Even though our dojo is more traditional than most (I believe), we also do not cleave tightly to that model of mentorship. More is done by example than by specific training in the ways other than the art itself.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Basically, Mr Miyagi/Daniel LaRusso.

It’s a nice notion but the article’s definitions are far too idealised much akin to describing the perfect father and son relationship: vanishingly rare.

It is the basis for the deshi form of studentship, which as you say is quite rare these days. It implies a discipleship which not many find desirable anymore. Even the term disciple can have strong negative connotations in the West.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Basically, Mr Miyagi/Daniel LaRusso.

Not at all. Daniel did not have any senpai duties or kohai to guide. He was more of a denshi.

It’s a nice notion but the article’s definitions are far too idealised

Many things relating to personal relationships are idealized. I thought the article's representations were pretty accurate. To sum up the core role of the TMA senpai:

Act at a bridge between the sensei and rest of the students.
Act as an example of proper dojo behavior and customs.
Encourage dojo cohesiveness and morale.
Assist in teaching lower belts.
Handle minor problems concerning students.

In other words, if the sensei is an army officer, the senpai is the sergeant. IMO, this model can be applied in not only strict traditional dojo, but less formally structured ones as well. While based on seniority, it is a position that is (should be) naturally assumed by the advanced student out of a sense of responsibility to his dojo. When the school is simply a business or exercise gym this mindset is less apt to evolve.

Of course, all the above is dependent on the sensei's vision.

It is the basis for the deshi form of studentship.

Historically, it is the opposite (if I'm understanding your context). Senpai only exist in a dojo with multiple students. Before this time there was only master/denshi relationship. It's more correct to say the denshi was the basis for the senpai.

vanishingly rare.

True. But not extinct by any means.

 

[Gyakuto]

Not at all. Daniel did not have any senpai duties or kohai to guide. He was more of a denshi.

Waxing Miyagi’s car? Sanding that decking? Painting that fence?

Do you mean ‘deshi’? Denshi = electron

there was only master/denshi relationship.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Do you mean ‘deshi’?

Yes. (dumb mistake)

 

[Gyakuto]

Yes. (dumb mistake)

It’s okay…it’s not your (my) language. I thought I was missing something!

 

[Gyakuto]

As an extension of this idea, what do you think of being a teacher’s ‘monji’?

 

[isshinryuronin]

It’s okay…it’s not your (my) language. I thought I was missing something!

I've never actually used the word deshi before, or heard others use it, and never wrote it. I've studied "den-" words referring to electric train, electrical engineer, telephone and microwave (denshi-renji), so that's what was in my head. I had 3 semesters of Japanese years ago. Used to know about 200 kanji and most basic grammar. Now have only very rudimentary, basic, semi-conversational skill.

As an extension of this idea, what do you think of being a teacher’s ‘monji’?

I don't understand "monji" in this context. Is there a prefix or can you provide a translation?

 

[Gyakuto]

It’s hard to give a concise complete definition but a teacher will make you their ‘special student’ or monji. You are taken under their wing, given special teachings perhaps, accompany them to special seminars etc. They in return will vouch for your training and indeed character, nurture your training a little more closely than the average dojo member.

 

[O'Malley]

FWIW, I've heard the term "deshi" a lot in aikido, with the distinction between uchideshi (inner disciple, who lives with the master and supposedly receives more authentic instruction) and sotodeshi (outer disciple). And some Japanese MA have a truckload of concepts that underpin their transmission system, like "den", "iemoto", "soke" vs "shihanke", "shuhari", without delving into stuff that's art-specific or cosmetic (we have a lot of them).

Never heard of monji, though.

I've never actually used the word deshi before, or heard others use it, and never wrote it. I've studied "den-" words referring to electric train, electrical engineer, telephone and microwave (denshi-renji), so that's what was in my head. I had 3 semesters of Japanese years ago. Used to know about 200 kanji and most basic grammar. Now have only very rudimentary, basic, semi-conversational skill.

I don't understand "monji" in this context. Is there a prefix or can you provide a translation?

 

[O'Malley]

It’s hard to give a concise complete definition but a teacher will make you their ‘special student’ or monji. You are taken under their wing, given special teachings perhaps, accompany them to special seminars etc. They in return will vouch for your training and indeed character, nurture your training a little more closely than the average dojo member.

I've heard the person who accompanies the teacher as assistant (e.g. in travels abroad) referred to as "otomo".

 

[Stuarto]

FWIW, I've heard the term "deshi" a lot in aikido, with the distinction between uchideshi (inner disciple, who lives with the master and supposedly receives more authentic instruction) and sotodeshi (outer disciple). And some Japanese MA have a truckload of concepts that underpin their transmission system, like "den", "iemoto", "soke" vs "shihanke", "shuhari", without delving into stuff that's art-specific or cosmetic (we have a lot of them).

Never heard of monji, though.

Soke, from what I've heard is a father of a system of martial arts or one who has created a style. In my life I have only known two Soke's.

 

[O'Malley]

Soke, from what I've heard is a father of a system of martial arts or one who has created a style. In my life I have only known two Soke's.

Simply put, the Sōke (宗家) is the head of the style. Of course, if you created it, chances are that you are also the first headmaster.

Sōke - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gyakuto]

My issue with becoming a monjin is I’ve seen it used to manipulate students either directly or indirectly.

‘Honours and bestowments are the shackles of servitude’

 

[O'Malley]

My issue with becoming a monjin is I’ve seen it used to manipulate students either directly or indirectly.

‘Honours and bestowments are the shackles of servitude’

This reminds me of the plot of a movie from the 90s, where an average Joe becomes a "monji" and then everything goes downhill.

It's got a pretty decent cast as well, with Robin Williams and a young Kirsten Dunst! It's called "Joe monji".

 

[isshinryuronin]

Simply put, the Sōke (宗家) is the head of the style.

Soke, from what I've heard is a father of a system of martial arts or one who has created a style. In my life I have only known two Soke's.

These two definitions are a little different. As the father/creator there is only one soke ever for the style. As the head of the style, there can be a generational passing down of the title. I'm good with either of these.

But personally, and for several other more senior than myself that could claim the title, it is reserved for the founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo. This is not because of any technically correct definition but out of respect and humbleness.

When I started, Tatsuo was alive, and the system had no competing branches or organizations. So, who was soke was not a question that needed to be asked. He was the only soke. This is probably why I still refer to him as "Soke."

What I am not good with is the subversion of this lofty title by applying it to the head of an organization. This enables almost anyone to be a soke. The idea of walking into a style's conference/symposium and having a score of soke milling about is distasteful to me.

 

[Steve]

Not at all. Daniel did not have any senpai duties or kohai to guide. He was more of a denshi.

Many things relating to personal relationships are idealized. I thought the article's representations were pretty accurate. To sum up the core role of the TMA senpai:

Act at a bridge between the sensei and rest of the students.
Act as an example of proper dojo behavior and customs.
Encourage dojo cohesiveness and morale.
Assist in teaching lower belts.
Handle minor problems concerning students.

In other words, if the sensei is an army officer, the senpai is the sergeant. IMO, this model can be applied in not only strict traditional dojo, but less formally structured ones as well. While based on seniority, it is a position that is (should be) naturally assumed by the advanced student out of a sense of responsibility to his dojo. When the school is simply a business or exercise gym this mindset is less apt to evolve.

Of course, all the above is dependent on the sensei's vision.

Historically, it is the opposite (if I'm understanding your context). Senpai only exist in a dojo with multiple students. Before this time there was only master/denshi relationship. It's more correct to say the denshi was the basis for the senpai.


True. But not extinct by any means.

There is a point where some schools that have been described around here go a little too far. Being a good example, acting as a bridge… that’s all fine. Makes sense.

But I don’t knew about teaching classes, and in particular handling problems (no matter how small). That, for me, starts moving outside the window of acceptability. At this level of responsibility, it would be reasonable to me only if the senpai were being compensated in some way. A wage or possibly payment in kind, such as free training. The idea of having paying students essentially conducting the work of the business is questionable.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is a point where some schools that have been described around here go a little too far. Being a good example, acting as a bridge… that’s all fine. Makes sense.

But I don’t knew about teaching classes, and in particular handling problems (no matter how small). That, for me, starts moving outside the window of acceptability. At this level of responsibility, it would be reasonable to me only if the senpai were being compensated in some way. A wage or possibly payment in kind, such as free training. The idea of having paying students essentially conducting the work of the business is questionable.

I see your point and agree with your last sentence that taking over "work" duties without compensation can be questionable, depending on how extreme it is. There is a difference between "assisting with lower belts" (which IMO all belts should want to help out their juniors) and "taking over work duties."

But of all the duties of the senpai I listed, teaching is the least important, IMO.

Want to say that when I say "duties" they are not really a formal job description as "senpai" isn't awarded but is rather a position voluntarily assumed by the senior student out of custom, self-imposed obligation and loyalty and recognized by others in the dojo as such.