The religious connections to the Kamidana

[Infinite]

Here is some info on Kamidana from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamidana

Below is a description from Dick Severance's site on the Kamiza and the Kamidana.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]Bujinkan dojo emphasize traditional training for combat. At the beginning and end of every class, traditional rei-ho, bowing in and out to the kamidana is performed. The kamidana or kamiza, is the spiritual seat of the traditional martial arts school and consists of a small house holding a calligraphy, photo or sculpture by or of the art's founder. This is purely a sign of reverence for the tradition of our art, not a form of worship.[/FONT]

http://www.n-i-n.com/Budo_Taijutsu.html

Hope that helps.

Thank you that was exactly what I was looking for.

May I ask another question that could be sensative in regards to the spiritual aspect of the arts?

I've noticed a lot of people seem to be Christian Oriented are you one of them? If so how do you reconcile this artifact with that faith?

If not then do you perscribe to any sort of structured faith?

Thanks

--Will

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am a Christian and teach sunday school pretty regularly. I have absolutely no problem with it at all nor do the priests that I teach.

 

[Infinite]

I am a Christian and teach sunday school pretty regularly. I have absolutely no problem with it at all nor do the priests that I teach.

I do not want to digress into a religious discussion those rarely turn out benifical to anyone. I was more curious about the no god before me and idolitry aspects of Catholosism.

thanks.

 

[bencole]

I do not want to digress into a religious discussion those rarely turn out benifical to anyone. I was more curious about the no god before me and idolitry aspects of Catholosism.

I don't think most Christian churches adhere to that precept anyways.

I was recently in Montreal and visited the famed Notre Dame cathedral there. It is *REALLY* beautiful, but I was astonished at how many idols (of Jesus, the disciples, Mary, other wise men, etc.) were on display! Behind the alter alone, there must have been about 15 or so life-sized statues from floor to ceiling!

And there adherents are, bowing and praying before these idols on a regular basis!!! Hmm.....

The sheer number of idols in Christian churches has recently been on my mind, since that trip. Sorry if I am detracting from the "ninja focus" here.

It's interesting because such idolatry is similarly prohibited in other religions, such as Islam. That's why Islamic mosques have ornate geometric patterns on display, rather than statues of individuals.

These patterns reflect the glory of god's design *WITHOUT* crossing the line of idolatry. Makes one think a little about who is really adhering to the wishes that Abraham's god made known in the Old Testament, Koran and Torah, eh?

In all seriousness, clapping one's hands before a model of a building does not constitute "worship" in my book. Worship is in the heart, which is why there is no need for churches or idols or any such trappings in order to worship.

I know some instructors who allow their students to sit out the bow-in.

I know others who think such actions are hypocritical given the preponderence of idols in these individuals' own places of worship.

Just something to think about, whichever way you swing....

-ben

 

[Tenguru]

That clarifies things for me thank you.

Actually, the Kamidana has it's roots in the Shinto belief system. To say that it is merely a symbol of respect for the founder is a substantial downplay of its history. But if that makes you feel more comfortable with it ....

 

[Bujingodai]

I always thought of it as a place for the warriors gone before to be revered. So in a way some form of worship. I am not a Christian in any way so that doesn't bother me.


Brian it is an awesome Kamidana. That may start a new thread where people take pics of theirs

 

[bydand]

Actually, the Kamidana has it's roots in the Shinto belief system. To say that it is merely a symbol of respect for the founder is a substantial downplay of its history. But if that makes you feel more comfortable with it ....

Yes it does have its' roots in the Shinto religion and if I'm not mistaken it is still used in Shinto homes and temples as a focal point of the worship. As used in every Dojo I've ever been in though it is not used as a religious object. That is not to downplay its history, and I never did downplay the history, because I didn't mention it as it wasn't relevent to the discussion. A training hall is not a Shinto temple, or a Shinto believers home temple; it is a place where the founders of the art are shown the respect and honor as though they are there. Not to worship the founders and teachers who have been there before, but just as a reminder of their contribution to the art studied in that training hall. It is the same thing as incense in some "Western" religions, in the old testament it was used to symboliclly carry supplications or prayers to God, and in the Catholic church it is still used sometimes. Does that mean every time some hippy fired up an incense stick in the 60's they were worshiping God. Nope, just meant they thought it smelled good. Same thing here, it doesn't diminish the importance of the object to one using it as a form of worship, but, it doesn't have to hold the same religious symbolism to all who use it either.

 

[Tenguru]

Yes it does have its' roots in the Shinto religion and if I'm not mistaken it is still used in Shinto homes and temples as a focal point of the worship. As used in every Dojo I've ever been in though it is not used as a religious object. That is not to downplay its history, and I never did downplay the history, because I didn't mention it as it wasn't relevent to the discussion. A training hall is not a Shinto temple, or a Shinto believers home temple; it is a place where the founders of the art are shown the respect and honor as though they are there. Not to worship the founders and teachers who have been there before, but just as a reminder of their contribution to the art studied in that training hall. It is the same thing as incense in some "Western" religions, in the old testament it was used to symboliclly carry supplications or prayers to God, and in the Catholic church it is still used sometimes. Does that mean every time some hippy fired up an incense stick in the 60's they were worshiping God. Nope, just meant they thought it smelled good. Same thing here, it doesn't diminish the importance of the object to one using it as a form of worship, but, it doesn't have to hold the same religious symbolism to all who use it either.

All I'm saying is that Shinto is probably the most common religion in Japan. It's no coincidence that you find Kamidana in Japanese dojos.

 

[Don Roley]

All I'm saying is that Shinto is probably the most common religion in Japan. It's no coincidence that you find Kamidana in Japanese dojos.

It has been my experience and observation that most Japanese are not really religious, merely superspicious. They bow to the Kamidama because that is what people do and have always done. I amuse myself by asking questions about religion to my friends, co- workers and students. It is a rare person that can tell you anything about Shinto.

So I dare say that most people bowing to the kamidama in the dojos in Japan are doing it as a form of tradition and not as any form of religion.

 

[Cathain]

I don't think most Christian churches adhere to that precept anyways.

I was recently in Montreal and visited the famed Notre Dame cathedral there. It is *REALLY* beautiful, but I was astonished at how many idols (of Jesus, the disciples, Mary, other wise men, etc.) were on display! Behind the alter alone, there must have been about 15 or so life-sized statues from floor to ceiling!

And there adherents are, bowing and praying before these idols on a regular basis!!! Hmm.....

You are mistaken. These would only be idols if the people were praying to them. These statues and crucifixes are simply to focus one's mind to more heavenly things and a reminder of the lives of Christ and the saints, much as wearing a cross might do.. They are not intended to be artifacts of worship anymore than showing reverance for a bible is worshipping it. I think any Catholic that understood even the basics of their religion would be appalled at the idea of worshipping statues or images themselves.

In all seriousness, clapping one's hands before a model of a building does not constitute "worship" in my book.

Indeed, similarly with statues.
What is important is that someone praying in front of such an object is still praying with their mind to God, not the object in front of them itself.

Then there is also the important difference between adoration and veneration. Many people do not discern such a difference these days, which leads to similar charges of idolatory when it comes to Mary and the saints which are just as inaccurate.

 

[Carol]

These patterns reflect the glory of god's design *WITHOUT* crossing the line of idolatry. Makes one think a little about who is really adhering to the wishes that Abraham's god made known in the Old Testament, Koran and Torah, eh?

I agree with what Cathain said, and will add...this is a western approach to worship.

The geometric patterns that adorn Islamic Mosques and Sikh Gurdwaras are borne of a tradition that forbids making any kind of image of holy people. The traditionalist way of thinking in these faiths is that not only God but the prophets/saints/gurus are not to be physically imaged in the form of pictures or statues but to be mentally imaged in meditation and prayer...focusing on the words of the holy ones. This is an eastern approach to worship.

Neither is better or more accurate, IMO...just more reflective of the culture and scriptures of the different faiths.

That being said...its a beautiful Kamidana, Brian!

 

[mrhnau]

Brian, this is from the Wiki you posted.

Kamidana (神棚 in Japanese), literally meaning "kami shelf", is a type of miniature shrine placed or hung high on a wall in some Japanese homes. The Kamidana contains a wide variety of items related to the Shinto style ceremony. Worship at the kamidana is as simple as saying prayers, offering food (i.e rice, water etc) and flowers. Before worshipping at the Kamidana, it is ritually important for family members to cleanse their hands.

This is a snippet from your post from Dick's site

[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]The kamidana or kamiza, is the spiritual seat of the traditional martial arts school and consists of a small house holding a calligraphy, photo or sculpture by or of the art's founder. This is purely a sign of reverence for the tradition of our art, not a form of worship.[/FONT]

I put conflicting statements in bold. Basically you guys are saying that Wiki is wrong? Or wrong for most people/Japanese?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No basically it is an object of reverance for the founders and teacher's that have trained before in Budo Taijutsu. That is how I see it and nothing more. (It is a tradition)

Having said that if someone was an adherent of Shinto then it may have an entirely different meaning to them.

Just like looking at a cross in a church may have a certain meaning to myself a connection maybe so to speak. While to someone who is not christian it is just an object and nothing more.

So basically both of the above are right it just depends on your viewpoint.

Now in my home I have a Buddhist statue. Does that make me a devout follower of buddha? No of course not.

I also have multiple statues of differnt hindu dieties. Does that make me a follower of Hindu? Of course not. They are objects of art. (to me) Not of worship! In other words they are just objects. (and precious to me for their artistic work)

All that is important to me is what is in my heart and mind and what I feel there. That is what is important. Heck really I do not even need to go to church because God is with me where ever I go. (though I go to church pretty regularly

)

 

[bydand]

I would say the wiki is right in one use of the kamidana, and it is probably the most frequent (Just a guess on my part as Shinto is not a part of the area I live in) but it isn't the only use of the Kamidana. Just as in most encyclopedias and dictionaries there is more than one definition or use of an item. As used in the dojo or training hall, then yes it is too narrow of a statement of use. If pertaining to the worship of Shinto, then it is right on the money. I have never seen food, flowers, or prayers said to a kamidana in a training hall setting, if it did involve that combined with a sense of worship, then I would have a problem with the use of one. As it stands though, there is none of the trappings of worship surrounding the kamidana in any training facility I have been in. I look at them in a training hall as sort of an honored place of rememberance. Kind of like having a momento, drawing, or photo of an ancestor, or close friend that is no longer with us, just to keep them in our thoughts. That is just my own thoughts and I can point to no written backing of that last statement, just the feelings of everyone I have trained with over the years are the same. Others may have a deeper meaning in their Kamidana, but that just boils down to the individuals use/significant of and in the object.

 

[mrhnau]

for further information, you can read about the kami on wiki. Found it kind of interesting...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

for further information, you can read about the kami on wiki. Found it kind of interesting...

That is a nice link. Thanks.

 

[bencole]

You are mistaken. These would only be idols if the people were praying to them.

Yes and no. First, when the scripture discusses God's displeasure with praying before idols, it was during the time when people were bowing before idols of cats and other such objects. Did these people actually pray to the cat statues? Nope. They prayed to what the cat statues represented.

Still, as a result of God's language, people went around smashing these other statues. These followers of Abraham's God were not smashing actual gods when they were smashing statues, but instead representations of gods. Your insistence on this difference simply does not follow with historical or scriptural fact.

What is important is that someone praying in front of such an object is still praying with their mind to God, not the object in front of them itself.

Second, many Catholics to not pray with their mind to God. Many of them pray to Jesus and/or Mary. The latter was definitely a human--granted a human who acted as a vehicle for the son of God, but not someone that even God would want people to bow to. Remember, "I am a jealous God."

These statues and crucifixes are simply to focus one's mind to more heavenly things and a reminder of the lives of Christ and the saints, much as wearing a cross might do.. They are not intended to be artifacts of worship anymore than showing reverance for a bible is worshipping it. I think any Catholic that understood even the basics of their religion would be appalled at the idea of worshipping statues or images themselves.

Actually, I've rarely met a Catholic who understands even the basics of their religion based on the original scriptures. They rely on translations of translations of translations, and form opinions and interpretations based on an imperfect understanding of the texts. What's worse, they pick and choose which aspects of their scriptures they want to adhere to and which aspects they conveniently want to ignore.

Catholics regularly ignore those who steal (i.e., embezzle), commit adultery, blaspheme the name of the Lord, and work on the Sabbath--all *DIRECT* violations of the Ten Commandments.

Yet, somehow these individuals seek to create *HUMAN LAWS* to forbid gay marriage and the like. Nothing in the Ten Commandments about gays, but somehow a rare mention of homosexuality becomes far more important than other religious admonishments in the bible, such as sleeping with a woman during her menstral cycle or eating pork.

(Just to jar your memory, the Lord spoke to Moses in Lev. 24:13-16, telling him that all should stone Shelomith's son for blaspheming the name of the Lord. We also see admonishments that those who work on the Sabbath should be put to death (Exodus 35:2). These are clearly things that *REALLY* upset God, but we don't see our supposedly religious Congressional leaders trying to create laws to outlaw working on the Sabbath. Instead, they try to outlaw homosexuality, even though it is not even as "bad" in the eyes of God himself. Again, selective, convenience religious zealousness that serves personal goals and not God's goals. I feel this comes from relying on interpreters, rather than personal interpretation of the original texts.)

I speak bluntly because I have deeper experience than most--I was head alter boy at my Catholic church and my father was in seminary to become a priest before falling ill, then in love, and then into marriage and children.

Aside from those pursuing priesthood, I have never *EVER* met a Catholic/Christian who had enough interest in the scripture to *LEARN* the actual languages in which the scriptures were written, and seek out the original texts. This the despite the fact that so many Catholics/Christians claim that the scriptures guide their life. Both Jews and Muslims are very different on this point. Both Jews and Muslims read their original texts in their original languages, and subsequently, are far more strict with the way that they read the scriptures.

Some believe that this "talk of religion" has nothing to do with "Ninjutsu", but I disagree.

As someone who spent years as translator for Hatsumi-sensei, I know the dangers of people relying on translators to tell them what to do and how to think about the teachings of this art. It will only get worse, after Hatsumi-sensei passes, in my opinion.

I already see signs of trouble as to "what Soke meant" and people without any true knowledge teaching others what this art supposedly entails. Most of the time I shake my head in dismay.

I think it is *VERY* important that people *THINK* about what is important and what is not important. I also think that people should first go to great lengths to understand the original language of a teaching, *IF* you plan on having those teachings play a guiding role in your life.

Both Catholics and Bujinkan practitioners fail to do this, in my humble opinion. Both instead rely on others to interpret for them and guide them. This leaves far too much "power" in the hands of those who act as translators and guides, which has been a traditional problem among followers of both teachings, again in my opinion.

May all your choices be good ones!

-ben

 

[mrhnau]

Same thing, different word. It's all in the usage.

I think Kamidana means literally "Kami shelf".

Kami is also several charcters in games and cartoons, as well as being the name of a few towns and villages. As used in the Shinto Religion, yes it is an object of worship and to focus worship. Used in a dojo, it is an honorific shelf; no more, no less.

I understand that. Perhaps for me, its just a cultural misunderstanding. I have taken alot of classes in college, privately from individuals and in various schools. I don't recall ever bowing to a shrine representing/honoring Einstein, Freud, Popper, my parents, etc.. I'd think it rather odd if my teacher asked us to. I understand that most Japanese don't look at it as spiritual, but that does not make it "normal" for me I guess... I've seen pictures of Hatsumi in dojos. I ask myself, if I happen to found an art, would I want my picture all over the place? What do I want my legacy to be? A picture or my art? I realize you can have both, and the notion of respect exists, but I think in that regard, I do have a cultural "gap", and I admit that.

If someone has a problem with the usage in their particular dojo or training hall, then don't take part in the bow-in and bow-out.

I agree with that. I am not aware of any instructors that would have issues w/ that.

I still say it is beautifully done and looks great Brian.

yes, I agree, I think it looks very nice

 

[bydand]

Perhaps for me, its just a cultural misunderstanding. I have taken alot of classes in college, privately from individuals and in various schools. I don't recall ever bowing to a shrine representing/honoring Einstein, Freud, Popper, my parents, etc.. I'd think it rather odd if my teacher asked us to.

I think we agree with the usage in the dojo setting, but you hit the nail on the head with the cultural misunderstanding I think. I was lucky enough to have my parents be open enough to have a Japanese exchange student stay with us when I was 8 or 9. From Kazumi I was made aware that bowing in her culture was about the same as the handshake in my culture. I have gone on to have friends from Japan and other Asian nations who regularly would bow upon meeting and then remember halfway through we shake hands over here. No difference to me, if they bowed, I did. I think of it the same way during bow-in and bow-out, just saying hello and showing respect. We had a couple people who train that did have a problem with the bowing and so therefore did not participate. As this is a Japanise art, I have no problem with maintaining some japanese traditions because it helps me make the connection back to the beginnings. Kind of like training in barefeet for the TKD schools I've been in, I don't really know the tradition behind that practice, but didn't have a problem with that either, along with a bow toward the Korean flag to show respect for the country where the art began.

 

[Infinite]

See I'm sorry I specifically stated I didn't want to do what just happened!

Faith interests me a great deal. Yet this might not have been the proper forum/thread for it