Such a system would be entirely worthless in an actual combat encounter. I've studied WC and while yes it is more precise than most arts I've studied it isn't so dependent on millimeter-level precision.
The problem With practicing WC and other arts...
- Thread starter geezer
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Such a system would be entirely worthless in an actual combat encounter. I've studied WC and while yes it is more precise than most arts I've studied it isn't so dependent on millimeter-level precision.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Depends who your fighting doesn't it , if some idiot on the street takes a swing at me and my deflecting Dai Sau is quite a bit off the center line it's not much of a drama as long as I get my counter punch in at the same time.
But if I am engaged in Chi Sau or close range combat with another skilled Wing Chun player then you better believe millimetres count.
A Fook Sau slightly off and they will wedge through it with their Tan Sau and before you know it you've been hit in the neck , any slightly outward or downward pressure and they will exploit that too.
At the higher levels of the Wing Chun martial art precision and the correct focusing of force matter a great deal , show me someone who's force is going anywhere but center or angles are incorrect and I will show you a technique to exploit it.
I'd respond that a non-sport system in which you principally train to fight someone who fights just like you might not be adequately well-rounded.
If everything has to be right, it's not going to work. That it does work is evidence that pieces are not so weakest-link fragile as indicated here. It's great to strive for perfection but a bad idea to use a system that would require it.
If everything has to be right, it's not going to work. That it does work is evidence that pieces are not so weakest-link fragile as indicated here. It's great to strive for perfection but a bad idea to use a system that would require it.
Danny T
Senior Master
Striving for and training to become perfect is good and is where the art aspect is important for many in the martial arts. For some of us striving for the same perfection keeps us working hard but competent functionabilty in many situations against different kinds of actions is far more important. For me it has to work against different kinds of attacks and attackers who are determined to hurt me. So it must be simple, direct, economical, and adaptable for combat. In a fight it has to be effective not perfect.
mook jong man
Senior Master
We don't principally train to fight someone who fights just like us.
But the fact remains if there are gaps in your Chi Sau , that means there is a weakness somewhere in your defence and you will be hit.
It is irrelevant whether someone fights like us or not , what we are dealing with in Chi Sau are different types of forces , whether the force comes in straight like Wing Chun or circular from some other type of style.
Is the force coming directly at our center or slightly off center , we must choose the correct technique to counter that force.
Consistant training of the Sil Lum Tau form and the practice of Chi Sau will foster a habit of constantly keeping your wrists on the centerline and being in your stance.
This is why there is so much repetition in Wing Chun and we don't have a gazillion forms , the secret is to just keep your damn hands on the centerline and be in your stance.
Even crappy Wing Chun will still work to a degree , but if you want to reach the higher levels and attain effortless power then things are required to be spot on.
Near enough is not good enough.
As an example It wasn't uncommon when training under Yip Man for Sigung Tsui to just practice pivoting for five hours in order to find his center , just think about that for a second , can you imagine being in your stance for five hours pivoting 45 degrees from side to side.
Most people probably couldn't think of anything more boring , but it wasn't boring to him because he was concentrating on the details.
So if your just interested in smashing people in the face and being a bit more freestyle with your movement you can go and learn boxing or something else , but if you are interested in studying something that you will be trying to perfect until the day you die then learn Wing Chun.
I think all of us spend a long time trying to perfect our martial arts and worrying about the details. For each art there is the possibility of improving form and (hence) function. Wing Chun is particularly technical, I agree, but if "things are required to be spot on" and "Near enough is not good enough" then when you meet an opponent of some skill but from a different art then you'll be pressed, slightly off your game, and perfection won't happen. In arnis we do practice very complicated, precision techniques that we figure would be unlikely to work in the heat of combat under the theory that in a real fight we'll lose a large percentage of our in-the-training-hall, warmed-up-and-ready-to-go best performance and want that percentage to drop from the highest starting point we can achieve. Real fights happen in imperfect situations. If "Near enough is not good enough" then you're practicing something that won't help you. I don't believe that of WC--I believe you're overselling the need for perfection. If your art is as you say it is, it's too fragile in design to be practicable. All real-world systems have failsafes that allow for less-than-desirable conditions, like the guy who punches harder than anyone you've ever trained with (for example).
Striving for perfection is great. Needing it is not.
One senior martial artist I know says you must train to fight three different types of opponents: An untrained (but dangerous) fighter, a trained fighter from a different style, and a trained fighter from a style similar to your own. We tend to spend a lot of time in the last of these modes because it's so very intellectually interesting and physically challenging, but it is dangerous thinking to get too taken with that one type of opponent.
I think you're selling WC short in saying that it must be "just so" to work. I wouldn't rely on a car that had no tolerance for changes in conditions--I wouldn't rely on such a martial art, either.
Striving for perfection is great. Needing it is not.
One senior martial artist I know says you must train to fight three different types of opponents: An untrained (but dangerous) fighter, a trained fighter from a different style, and a trained fighter from a style similar to your own. We tend to spend a lot of time in the last of these modes because it's so very intellectually interesting and physically challenging, but it is dangerous thinking to get too taken with that one type of opponent.
I think you're selling WC short in saying that it must be "just so" to work. I wouldn't rely on a car that had no tolerance for changes in conditions--I wouldn't rely on such a martial art, either.
Jake104
Black Belt
I didnt read the whole thread but,In terms of perfect technique. A millimeter off here and there will turn into a gapping hole when more and more pressure is applied. So WC should be an art either done right or not at all. Mix what you like, but just be aware that if it means not adhering to the core principles then the integrity of each art may be lost.
It's kinda like driving fast . At slow speed you can be more sloppy with the movement of the steering wheel. But as the speed increasing so does the need to keep a tighter tolerance of control .otherwise a millimeter either way could mean driving of the road.
It's the same with fighting . Maybe sloppy WC may work against someone unskilled or smaller but when your dealing with larger and maybe more skilled opponents percision is key.
It's kinda like driving fast . At slow speed you can be more sloppy with the movement of the steering wheel. But as the speed increasing so does the need to keep a tighter tolerance of control .otherwise a millimeter either way could mean driving of the road.
It's the same with fighting . Maybe sloppy WC may work against someone unskilled or smaller but when your dealing with larger and maybe more skilled opponents percision is key.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
It is probably not as critical if your facing a non Wing Chun opponent and weight , size and strength are about equal , added to that most people wouldn't know their centerline from their backside so you could probably get by on superior speed and just being able to throw a semi straight punch
But I will use the example of Chi Sau again because it really is the essence of the whole system , the higher the skill level of the two partners and the closer they are in skill , then the level of refinement and correctness of technique must be higher in order to not get hit.
The slightest gap will be taken advantage of , as will any uneven flow of "forward force"
Against a beginner I could have the centerline wide open and because I'm faster and more experienced I could still stop the hits coming in , but against someone good I am going to get a port hole punched through my chest.
I find myself agreeing with most of what Mook writes, but I'd beg to differ on the point above. I would say that there is, of course, potentially good structure and bad structure (or let's say, no Wing Tsun structure) in an exchange. But the idea that this is measured in a few millimeters is not correct, IMHO. If this were true, WT/WC would only work if you were 100% perfect in every motion and body method, 100% of the time.
Not even our systems' 'masters' could ever claim that :mst: (I choose this emoticon thingy purely as it looks like Leung Ting when he had the little beard).
mook jong man
Senior Master
Well probably the term millimetres is stretching it a bit , but its got to at least be within a few centimetres in my opinion.
WC_lun
Senior Master
It isn't required that techniques in Wing Chun need to be perfect to be effective. However, perfect technique does the job much better and leaves you less vulnerable than imperfect technique. The difference between imperfect technique and perfect techniue can indeed be a difference of millimeters.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Heard Sifu Donald Mak say something interesting about how westerners get too hung up on thinks like the proper angle and proper weight distribution and how it would probably work better to understand the philosophy behind it. I will have to find the direct quote and post it.
The reason I bring this up is that I see this in Taiji all the time, how much weight on this foot hwo much on this one what angle how should I breath.... a while back I found that when I stopped looking at things mathematically and started trying to look at it from a Chinese perspective (less compartmentalized) it started to make a lot more sense and my Taiji got better.
To bring this back to a bit of a Wing Chun example, I recently was given a bit of a Wing Chun demo from a guy that impressed the hell out of me. He said I do not need to see who hit me I just need to know that there is a head on the other side of that fist.
The reason I bring this up is that I see this in Taiji all the time, how much weight on this foot hwo much on this one what angle how should I breath.... a while back I found that when I stopped looking at things mathematically and started trying to look at it from a Chinese perspective (less compartmentalized) it started to make a lot more sense and my Taiji got better.
To bring this back to a bit of a Wing Chun example, I recently was given a bit of a Wing Chun demo from a guy that impressed the hell out of me. He said I do not need to see who hit me I just need to know that there is a head on the other side of that fist.
Funny you should say this. I've always been very detail oriented in my MA training.
Lately, when practicing chi sau, I've been seeing it from more of a whole body approach and less about what each arm is doing. As a result, my chi sau seems to have improved tremendously.
Danny T
Senior Master
I have a few students who are, let's say, girthy; compared to me. Perfection in the presentation of their tools is impractical due to their mid section and yet are extemely efficient and effective in 'their' expression of wing chun. Their sensitivity is very good, their ability to angle to control the attack lines are excellent, and they are deceptively quick. Could they be better IF they lost the mass, yes. In the Art of wing chun they have much to work on. In their Martial ability against multiple types of attackers they are high on the list of those I would not want to have to face for real.
Training for perfection is great. Howerver, we are imperfect beings, and must deal with that. As we go through life, our attributes change as well as different abilities. I have a student who sustained an arm injury. That arm is no longer straight and he has very little movement in the wrist. Can't do a perfect huen sao or taun sao yet is still an amazing practitioner. His will never be perfect in his presentation of the wing chun but his expression of wing chun is very very good.
Training for perfection is great. Howerver, we are imperfect beings, and must deal with that. As we go through life, our attributes change as well as different abilities. I have a student who sustained an arm injury. That arm is no longer straight and he has very little movement in the wrist. Can't do a perfect huen sao or taun sao yet is still an amazing practitioner. His will never be perfect in his presentation of the wing chun but his expression of wing chun is very very good.
I don't doubt that when two WC players of relatively equal skill are playing that the little things matter a lot--it's the same for us in arnis--but millimeter accuracy is just not humanly achievable in a fighting situation. Look at soldiers' marksmanship scores in training and actual hit rates in battle--widely different. How often do you see a picture of a boxer landing a KO blow with his rear foot off the ground? It happens. You need some tolerance for stress within any system.
Been there. I am very guilty of this--seeing free-body force diagrams in every technique. A BJJ instructor I had once quoted his instructor, who would say that "the hardest people to teach are smart guys and strong guys: smart guys keep trying to figure out the technique instead of just feeling it, and strong guys can get by with muscling through enough to keep them from having to really learn the technique."
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
...and I didn't even mention what he said about good-looking guys! 
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
...and I didn't even mention what he said about good-looking guys!
Good thing or I would have had to quit :lfao:
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Here is what I was referring to in post #32 as to what Sifu Donald Mak said
In a discussion about the Yang Taijiquan long form someone was asking my sifu about the 108 form and why the different numbers for the same form (88, 108, etc.) He later told me we never counted, we just called it the long form. They never used numbers of degrees or percentages to describe anything. He is also from Southern China, although he is a little older that Sifu Donald Mak
In a discussion about the Yang Taijiquan long form someone was asking my sifu about the 108 form and why the different numbers for the same form (88, 108, etc.) He later told me we never counted, we just called it the long form. They never used numbers of degrees or percentages to describe anything. He is also from Southern China, although he is a little older that Sifu Donald Mak
