The Pre-Emptive Strike

[MJS]

I figured I would throw something in here for some thought...

Why not create the opportunity they want? This way you are setting the stage and they are reacting to that primal urge and all the bystanders see is this person took a swing at you and you were doing nothing.

Just a thought.

Good point Dave. If I'm reading this correctly, this would fall into the category of taking a non-aggressive posture, hands up, saying that you don't want to fight, etc.?

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

Good point Dave. If I'm reading this correctly, this would fall into the category of taking a non-aggressive posture, hands up, saying that you don't want to fight, etc.?

Mike

Yes, something like that. The last thing you want, is to let them (attacker(s) and bystanders) know you know something. This is critical when it comes to the law and a court room. Even if you had every right to defend yourself, as a martial artist, the court will certainly hold you to a higher standard than the average person with regards to self defense. Also what the bystanders see will greatly influence the outcome of the situation from a legal stand point. Plus, never display your weapons. IMHO

 

[jdinca]

We have some great discussion going here! Thanks to everyone that has contributed! Thought I'd change the direction a little. We have discussed the pros/cons of the Pre emptive strike. Now, I'd like to hear thoughts on what you think are some of the best strikes to use.

Mike

Depends on what targets present themselves. A nice kick to the knee would work well, as would the groin. Heel hand or punch to the chin followed by a knee to the groin. Half fist to the throat or rigid claw to the eyes if it was a life or death situation. A good quality ear slap should do the trick followed by a knee into the face as he bends over holding his head.

If an arm is presenting forward, a good chin na move into a lock might prevent a much more violent confrontation, especially if it involves some pain on his part, such as face to ground, with arm torqued in an unnatural position etc...

The choices are endless.

 

[Cyber Ninja]

A good pre-emptive strike, if properly launched, ends most confrontations. One of my favorites.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I try to keep in mind that there are potentially three (sets of) witnesses. "you're friends", who wll stick up for you to the law, "his/her friends" who will try to make you look bad to the law, and"nobodies friends", who just happen to be there. The first group is probably going to be treated skeptically (and they should be) because the second group could lie or embellish or whatever and in the eyes of the law both groups are probably the same (so you want the law to be skeptical). If the third group that you want as your witnesses. The ones who did not see you act aggressiveand who did not see you strike first. Part of situational awareness is to know who's around. If it's all his friends, then you are probably screwed anyway so have at it (being you are alone and outnumbered that if you can't talk/run your way out then witnesses don't matter). If it's all your friends than you *really* don't want to start something and be accused of ganing up. But if there are third party observers, make sure they will be on your side by what they see you do, and not do

 

[swiftpete]

Last Memorial Day I was working a huge party at the nightclub. We had a lot of singers performing that night. 80's acts like The Cover Girls, TKA, Shannon, etc. for those of you into Freestyle club music.

Anyway, I was posted by the stairway leading down to the dressing rooms which was roped off. There was a guy standing near the stairs kind of blocking te way. The party promoter had asked the guy to step aside so the artists who were getting off the stage could go down. The guy starts yelling and cursing at the promoter, so I intervened. I asked the guy to step aside and he turns his ire on me.

Mind you, the guy was about 6'3", 280 lbs. I'm not small myself, but definitely no where near that big. The guy is yelling and cursing, but not moving. Now I have one singer with her entourage behind me, another singer and his entourage coming up the stairs and this guy blocking both groups from getting anywhere. At this point I got angry and said in a very firm tone, "My man, you got to move!" He responded by squaring off and throwing up his fists. I didn't even hesitate. WHAM! I caught him with a right to the jaw that knocked him out cold. This is where it gets scary.

The guys eyes roll up into his head and he goes right down the stairs. My first thought was that I'd killed him. This guy was gonna break his neck and I was going away for a looooong time. Luckily, the people making their way up the stairs tried to catch him and break his fall.

Now my logic was that I wasn't gonna let a guy that size get a shot off on me. Skill or no skill I didn't want to take that chance. However, due to my surroundings I may have wanted to think twice about my reaction. I could have killed him, one of those people coming up the stairs could've been injured as a result of my actions.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

Even still, I bet you were pleased you KO'd him. If you'd hit him with your best shot and he'd just stood there then that would've been worse! How hard did you have to hit him to knock him out then? He sounds like a big bloke, not the sort that i would've thought would've gone down easy. 20 stone bloke raging in your face..yeah i think that'd be something that'd get your heart pumping a bit..

 

[Nanalo74]

Even still, I bet you were pleased you KO'd him. If you'd hit him with your best shot and he'd just stood there then that would've been worse! How hard did you have to hit him to knock him out then? He sounds like a big bloke, not the sort that i would've thought would've gone down easy. 20 stone bloke raging in your face..yeah i think that'd be something that'd get your heart pumping a bit..

LOL! Yeah, I must admit the highlight of the story is that he went down with one shot. He was pretty drunk so I can't give myself too much credit. But you're right, a character that size definitely made me move differently than I would have if he were "human size".

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Cujo]

As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.

Pax
Cujo

 

[Nanalo74]

As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.

Pax
Cujo

I've used this tactic many times (the interview stance) and it works very well. You can react very quickly and people watching see it as a non-aggressive posture. I had another incident where a guy was being verbally aggressive, threatening, etc. I kept saying "Sir, just stay where you are. Sir, I don't want any problems.", etc. His friends got him out of the club before he got near me and when the managers came over to find out what happened (this was a corporate event where roughing up the customers is NOT an option), I didn't have to open my mouth. Those who were in the vicinity told them what happened and how I practically begged the guy to walk away. It works.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[sgtmac_46]

As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.

Pax
Cujo

Cops know how to use force with witnesses standing around.

'Sir, quit resisting..please sir, quit resisting....this isn't necessary sir, i'm just trying to handcuff you, there's no need for this, sir.'

Talk nice, think mean.

 

[Cujo]

Amen Sarge!

Pax
Cujo

 

[Bigshadow]

Cops know how to use force with witnesses standing around.

'Sir, quit resisting..please sir, quit resisting....this isn't necessary sir, i'm just trying to handcuff you, there's no need for this, sir.'

Talk nice, think mean.

However, I don't think I can say that. I might would even break a law or two trying that line.

 

[jdinca]

As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.

Pax
Cujo

It's interesting how this stance can become mind, no mind, isn't it? Most of my job involves dealing with people in stressful situations and I'm not armed (except for these lethal hands, whaaahhhhh!!!:lol. Fortunately, I'm usually considered the "good guy". Even though, people react to stress in weird ways sometimes. The few times I've had someone come at me, it was usually because I wasn't paying attention and didn't get a chance to defuse it before it escalated. Fortunately, that hasn't happened in quite a few years. To me, the best pre-emptive strike is verbal judo while being prepared in case it doesn't work.

 

[sgtmac_46]

However, I don't think I can say that. I might would even break a law or two trying that line.

I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.

'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.

Better? Talk nice, think mean.

Just think of what the jury would think if the witnesses told of you BEGGING the 'vicious man' to leave you alone, pleading with him to stop his attack, and only, when he further persisted, had to resort to violence as a last, reluctant resort. You, sir, are the real victim of this event. The defense rests.

 

[MJS]

I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.

'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.

Better? Talk nice, think mean.

Just think of what the jury would think if the witnesses told of you BEGGING the 'vicious man' to leave you alone, pleading with him to stop his attack, and only, when he further persisted, had to resort to violence as a last, reluctant resort. You, sir, are the real victim of this event. The defense rests.

Great points! Some may look at that and think that you're backing down, giving the aggressor the ok to keep verbally belittling you, etc. IMHO, this is the impression that you want to give, especially, as its been said, if there are bystanders. Talk is cheap. If I isolated myself into a corner everytime someone called me a name, I'd never leave my house. Does it anger you and make you want to just lay the guy out? Sure, but in the long run, the headaches will be alot less by walking away.

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.

'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.

Better? Talk nice, think mean.

Just think of what the jury would think if the witnesses told of you BEGGING the 'vicious man' to leave you alone, pleading with him to stop his attack, and only, when he further persisted, had to resort to violence as a last, reluctant resort. You, sir, are the real victim of this event. The defense rests.

Yes, I understand. We are taught like that! I knew what you meant. Yes, as you "stumble" onto your attacker, you are trying to get up off of them but somehow you elbows, knees, and feet seem to crush the attacker over and over while you "attempt" to get up and out of their vicious grip! All the while saying what you pointed out!

 

[MJS]

Depends on what targets present themselves. A nice kick to the knee would work well, as would the groin. Heel hand or punch to the chin followed by a knee to the groin. Half fist to the throat or rigid claw to the eyes if it was a life or death situation. A good quality ear slap should do the trick followed by a knee into the face as he bends over holding his head.

If an arm is presenting forward, a good chin na move into a lock might prevent a much more violent confrontation, especially if it involves some pain on his part, such as face to ground, with arm torqued in an unnatural position etc...

The choices are endless.

Great post! I agree, the choices are endless. I personally like the concept to Tony Blauers Spear. Slamming into the opponent when they begin to move can give you some great follow-ups with both knees and elbows.

Mike