The Pre-Emptive Strike

[MJS]

Hi again,

These are good points your making. Especially, the best defence is a good offence seems very true.
However we have to keep something in mind. Just as some martial arts suit some people better than others (I for instance like my sturdy, hard shotokan karate, you might like a completely different fighting system), some fighting styles suit some people better than others. From what I make up of this thread, the pre-emptive strike is definately a good method for you. Not to say it wouldn't work for me as well, but I personally prefer to let the other person make the first move.

And this may seem strange for someone who thoroughly enjoys martials arts training: I really don't like hitting people (outside of the dojo that is), even when some may say they deserve it. That's why I shall always opt for running away.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post

cheerfully yours,
:asian:
axioma

Thank you again for the reply. You're right and I have said the same thing many times myself, and that being that we all train for different reasons. Everybody has their own way of doing things. As long as what you're doing is working for you and as long as you're happy with it, that should be all that matters. :asian:

Mike

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree with the others that stated if there was NO way out then absolutely throw the first punch/kick whatever! Law states that self-defense is when the first person touches. Even if it's poking their finger in your chest. However! Waiting for that first (and possibly LAST) punch from the antagonist might not be a smart idea.
I was sparring with someone and we got to talking about my particular style (his was ninjitusu... mine JKD). I told him that basically I will NOT allow anyone to touch me without my (spoken or unspoken) permission. To illustrate I asked him to (slow) punch me with my intent not to let him "touch me". He did and I parried.
He said: Well I touched you.
I replied: NO you didn't. I initiated first contact when I parried your blow.
Doing the movement(s) again I explained that by raising my arm to parry and my touching his arm (first) I was touching him first.
Point I'm trying to make is that in defense or offense, in a "for-real" fight I will do what I can to prevent the person from touching me (if I see that he is about to). From behind I canna do nothing until contact is made and my response will be appropriate to the amount of force used.
Yeah, I could be knocked out with one blow from behind. Just don't be around when I wake up.
But of course there is always a way out of any confrontation.

"The first man to raise a fist, is the first one to run out of ideas" Herbert George Wells

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hello all,

I might be wrong here, but a lot of you talk like you've actually been in a couple of fights here. Is there so much more criminality where you come from ? I live in quite a big city, but the moment I sense something is wrong (like some of you have mentionned: you know when somebody wants to hit you, they give way too many signals), I just split. Not even running, just calmly walking away, and this has always worked for me.

Once, when I was up against a little gang, i just dodged the first attack (dodge it, not block it) and than just ran.

so generally you could say I'm all for the principle: 'when you get into a fight your true self-defence has already failed.'

About the question now: Should I ever be unable to avoid a fight, I would not use a pre-emptive strike. it doesn't suit me as principle. It's like you all said: when somebody really wants to hit you they signal. This gives you enough time to
a) dodge the attack
b) prepare a block for the attack.

So that's what I'd do. Well, that's what I'd say I'd do. I've luckily never been in a situation where I've had to think about such things. It is a nice question to ponder however.

cheers,
:asian:
axioma

So if you have to defend your self against two attackers, you feel it is bad principle to take one out before they get it toguether? (lets say you lack obvious cover for the sake of argument)

 

[c2kenpo]

Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!! Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble. Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.

Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.

A- Wait until you were 100% sure that he was going to hit you, wait until he started to draw back, throw the punch and then block, or

B- As soon as you saw him start to move, hit him, and end the situation.

Again, keeping in mind the people standing around possibly watching this happen.

Any thoughts? i'm sure I dont have to tell many of you what I would do!!

Mike

Mike mike mike,................ and you say I start things up!!!!!

Well I have a two-fold answer to this.
A - Never ever sure that someone is really going to swing till they do.
B - Obviously he was doing something. And if necessary yes i would.

Now..some guidelines...range and environment of course all add to the factors and we have all been down that road so..for an example....(not that I have done this :uhyeah: )

An altercation occured and I placed both hands up in front of my face not the envorinment was crowded and noisy After warning the person that I just wanted to drop the subject he moved forward toward me..distance was roughly 2ft apart, I dont recall what he was doing with his arms it never mattered, I dropped with my right foot forward hand still up and hammered my right elbow right into his sternum. My hands were still open in front of my face never moved ,basicly knocking the wind out of him and suddenly WHOA!!! Hey ?? You alright??? He tripped on something!! Might have had too much to drink. Can you help him get back to his seat...great thanks.......(slowly headed for the door).

Fun yes..was it the right decision?? Doesn't matter, for me it was. I did not want to be in an altercation that involved me having to be aware of 360 degrees of anything and everything. I got home safe and I'm sure whomever my agressor was had one solid case of indegestion that night!


BTW Axioma Welcome to the Forum and I love your posts! Good ideas and right along with what I teach. However as always we can run away all the time.

And Mike (MJS) Running?????...Always an option...Gimme Three Steps Gimme Three Steps Mister and you 'll never see me no more.....FOR SURE!! :boing2:


David Gunzburg


And he was afraid he might start trouble......(shakes head)

 

[Rick Wade]

Yes, I like that also. Kind of the same principle Tony Blauer uses with his 'Spear' method that he teaches.

Mike

Thats compliments of Mr. Pick Like in Delayed Sword (for instance) no one is going to come up on the street and just punch you. You will have some sort of warning.

Respectfully

 

[clapping_tiger]

There is nothing in the wording or intent of use of force/deadly force laws that mandate that you have to go down a checklist of lesser responses OR that you have to give the other guy(s) the first shot before you can respond with physical force. Generally, there is a duty to retreat either stated or implied in the wording with the stipulation that by doing so you are not putting yourself in further danger.

Biggest thing is - whether you strike pre-emptively or not - to make sure the threat is reasonably obvious to you (as well as others when you have to deal with the legal stuff) and that your responding force is appropriate (including when you stop).

If someone is layering verbal threats along with impeding my escape mixed in with other factors that can stack up to a reasonable threat, I will use a pre-emptive strike as a means to create an escape route. Continuums are not checklists, you can jump from step 1 to step 20 if need be or start at step 10 instead of one depending on the situation.

JUst to add to this, you need to be able to communicate clearly to the police officers excatly what events brought you to the conclusion that you had not other choice but to defend yourself and strike first.

I am all for the pre-emptive strike. Why wait till he throws the first attack. Most people don't just throw one punch and stop. They come in swinging. and if you are that confident in your abilties to let someone come in and attack first, hey, more power to you. But to me it's not worth waiting and finding out. End the situation and go home.

 

[loki09789]

JUst to add to this, you need to be able to communicate clearly to the police officers excatly what events brought you to the conclusion that you had not other choice but to defend yourself and strike first.

I have said this before too - language and bearing are just as important as behavior here. Having a lawyer to help with this stuff as quickly as possible if a situation is helpful too. They are the black belts of the legal arena.

 

[Zoran]

There was a similar thread from 2 years ago in the Kenpo forum that may be of interest.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1581

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I like what C2 said about heading for the door after the altercation. Even back in high school we had the sense not to stick around the scene of the crime, or the vice-principal will dial in on the crowd and escort you to the office.

Modern technology makes it harder to get away with some silly altercations, but supports you in others. I watch the news here in LA, where everynight someone got caught on tape doing something, in front of witnesses, and the police still have to ask for the help of the public in identifying the perp.

If you think there's no other way out...hit first, hit hard, hit fast, then dash outta there and resume an innocous activity somewhere else. Then, if the dooky does hit the fan, practice your Ollie North skills: Deny, Deny, Deny. In the end, it's your word against someone elses. People in L.A. get caught on tape breaking the law, and still walk.

What's that favortie quote for professional red light runners? "It's only illegal if you get caught."

Tongue-in-cheek,

Dr. Dave

 

[Bammx2]

ma gran'daddy always said...."there ain't no way to get out of a good butt-kickin...all you can do is hope to get in the first lick..it might make all the difference."

My judo teacher(r.i.p) said.."let them throw the first punch..then its self-defence."
I did that once....didn't remember much after that

 

[tumpaiguy]

Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away,


Mike

If you try and walk away and he doesn't let you? That is physical enough for me to defend myself. Turn your back to him, still paying attention of course. If he doesn't follow, great. If he does he would catch a mule kick that would knock him into the crowd.

 

[Flatlander]

For me, there are two possibilities, assuming that I am aware the situation has escalated to the possibility of attack:

1) other guy is smaller than me - wait for the attack.

2) other guy is same size or bigger - attack first.

As most that would be the agressor would likely be larger than me, as I'm rather slim, most times would have me strike pre-emptively.

 

[michaeledward]

I am probably too old, and not nearly skilled enough to answer this question... but ... I'm going to take a shot at it anyway.

The art I practice is the art of 'Self-Defense', not 'Self-Offense'. The first thing I do is block an attack, which allows me to position the attackers body to where I can inflict pain and damage.

Now ... If I was as good as I hope to be someday, I would always have the luxury of waiting for the aggressor to take the first strike, then counter.

There is a story about two Japanese Martial Arts Masters facing each other with swords; they stood facing each other in a 'Ready Position', until the match was called a 'Draw'. Each knew that by making the first aggressive move, they would create an opening upon which their opponent could capitalize.
Put me in the 'WAIT' column.

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

The fact is, if one is not yet skillful enough to be certain to be able to handle the situation as it comes, from a purely defensive context, then the pre-emptive strike may give one the opportunity to escape if possible, or mount a more serious offence if necessary. If one doesn't train to attack the attack, one will never use it.

 

[OC Kid]

Its been my experiance that intution lets me know whether this person is going to attack or not.
Now with that being said there are alot of intangables that lead to the decision to strike.
The circumstances of the event;
, Is he a school yard type bully,
is he drunk, stoned or other wise intoxicated
are his buddies egging him on
is it a spur of the moment rage
is he really angry at you or something else.

The place of the event;
outside a resturant
inna bar
inna casino
in the movies
driving down the street (road rage)
Any more with the advent of cell phones Ill dial 911 and let the police handle it.
With the use of guns Ill walk away if I can.

Once I was going to the movies i was driving through the parking lot and some guy just threw me a finger. he was walking behind some lady and appeared to be up set (maybe a lovers quarrel) unthinking I threw him one back, he came up to yelling and screaming and tried to push me which I just blocked. he realized I was alot faster than him and might be trained ...anywayhe looked at me puzzled and walked away.
The GF i was with who is a brown belt asked me why I didnt side kick him. I told her he was probably mad at his wife/ gf and was taking it out on me. Anyway this way he could go home work it out with her and we could enjoy the movie.
But I knew it was going to happen that way ...why intuition.

 

[Flatlander]

Don't get me wrong here OC, I believe you. But for myself, its very difficult to trust intuition. Maybe I just have not been able to prove its reliability with myself thus far. Nonetheless, intuition is not a tool upon which I can rely. Therefore, the pre-emptive strike will be more prevalent in my response. Though, having said that, how do I know when its time to get pre-emptive? Maybe that is intuition talking to me? Clearly I need to think about this some more....

 

[loki09789]

Its been my experiance that intution lets me know whether this person is going to attack or not.
Now with that being said there are alot of intangables that lead to the decision to strike.
The circumstances of the event;
, Is he a school yard type bully,
is he drunk, stoned or other wise intoxicated
are his buddies egging him on
is it a spur of the moment rage
is he really angry at you or something else.

The place of the event;
outside a resturant
inna bar
inna casino
in the movies
driving down the street (road rage)
Any more with the advent of cell phones Ill dial 911 and let the police handle it.
With the use of guns Ill walk away if I can.

Once I was going to the movies i was driving through the parking lot and some guy just threw me a finger. he was walking behind some lady and appeared to be up set (maybe a lovers quarrel) unthinking I threw him one back, he came up to yelling and screaming and tried to push me which I just blocked. he realized I was alot faster than him and might be trained ...anywayhe looked at me puzzled and walked away.
The GF i was with who is a brown belt asked me why I didnt side kick him. I told her he was probably mad at his wife/ gf and was taking it out on me. Anyway this way he could go home work it out with her and we could enjoy the movie.
But I knew it was going to happen that way ...why intuition.

I agree that 'that little itch should be telling you something' but it is a hard thing to use as a justified use of force defense if LEO get involved. Layer that intuition with a sound force continuum/penal law and you will be covered better.

 

[MJS]

Don't get me wrong here OC, I believe you. But for myself, its very difficult to trust intuition. Maybe I just have not been able to prove its reliability with myself thus far. Nonetheless, intuition is not a tool upon which I can rely. Therefore, the pre-emptive strike will be more prevalent in my response. Though, having said that, how do I know when its time to get pre-emptive? Maybe that is intuition talking to me? Clearly I need to think about this some more....

How do you know?? Well, I guess it depends on the individual person, but for me, I would think that it'd be once the guy started to move closer, try to get in your face, etc. Having your hands up in a defensive posture is a plus. At least you have something between him and you besides your face!

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

At least you have something between him and you besides your face!

Mike

Very true. Quite agreed.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Granted, MA are for self defense only. However, once you invade my personal space or that of someone with me, you have effectively attacked me, especially if I have nowhere to go. if you corner an animal, it will not wait for you to touch it. Trust me, our cats have proven this.
If my personal space is invaded by someone with obviously unfriendly intentions, I may have no choice but to attack first before I find myself in a situation where effective defense is impossible. Especially if more than one aggressor is involved.