The pope...
- Thread starter Bruno@MT
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Omar B
Senior Master
Could be. We are a small group, we don't have weekly clubhouse meetings on Sundays, yet we are being portrayed as this monolithic establishment who's out to destroy ... something, I don't think the religionists have decided what we are destroying yet. We are not an organized group like religion so it's easy to target a beast with no head or body or really anything. If they could come up with a word for people who don't believe in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny they would be as vilified as us.
Ramirez
Black Belt
I am wondering where the Pope thinks Hitler learned to be anti-semitic except as a result of growing up in a Christian dominated Europe where the religion itself was anti-semitic and promoted anti-semitism.
There had been a Jewish ghetto outside the Pope's window for centuries ffs.
You don't believe in the Easter Bunny???????????????????
This anti-bunny establishment/conspiracy needs to end!! I have found that the morality of our children has been negatively influenced by the lack of faith in his almighty Cuteness. Our traditional rituals of feasting early morning on chocolate confectionaries, and the sugar rush, nah the endorphin fix it provides brings us closer to the righteous bunny.
Send me chocolate and I will pray for your heathen soul!!! Repent!!!
Ramirez
Black Belt
not believing in God is one thing...but not believing in the Easter bunny? That is just cold.
:lol:
You chaps don't want to get me going on this one, especially as his Nazi-dom, the Pope, reached into my pocket and nicked a quid towards funding his visit to my country - for the privilege of which he denounced me as an "Aggressive Atheist (TM)" it seems. One in twelve people here are Catholic (the stats on this vary) - if they want their religious head to come here then they can pay for it, not me!
Henry VIII had the right of it when it comes to the Papists - why we're opening the door for them (the senior hierarchy of the faith) now I am not sure. It is the first time in my living memory that I have whole-heartedly disagreed with a decision taken by my monarch.
You chaps don't want to get me going on this one, especially as his Nazi-dom, the Pope, reached into my pocket and nicked a quid towards funding his visit to my country - for the privilege of which he denounced me as an "Aggressive Atheist (TM)" it seems. One in twelve people here are Catholic (the stats on this vary) - if they want their religious head to come here then they can pay for it, not me!
Henry VIII had the right of it when it comes to the Papists - why we're opening the door for them (the senior hierarchy of the faith) now I am not sure. It is the first time in my living memory that I have whole-heartedly disagreed with a decision taken by my monarch.
Omar B
Senior Master
Wait? How does that work? I'm pretty sure the biggest sect of christianity there is the Church Of England or am I wrong on this one? How is the Pope reaching into everyone's pockets on this one?
Aggresive Atheist, that's great. I love these generalizations about atheists, it's like screaming "them" or "those people," because who speaks up for a disembodied whole? They seem to think all atheists are one because they think it's like a religion where we have to get togethers and hold hands.
Stop treating "The Church" like a separate entity and start arresting, prosecuting and punishing the members of the organization like any other people.
Tax them too. Drop all religious exemptions. Italy could probably balance their national debt just from St. Peters alone.
Tax them too. Drop all religious exemptions. Italy could probably balance their national debt just from St. Peters alone.
well you know that isn't going to happen. The church has had more power than govt. at times in history. It is a separate entity.
I am not even sure the church is exempt from taxes but rather just immune to the entire thing. I dont believe they even have to file for exemption status (on income,property they do). The govt. possibily restricted via separation of church and state or the freedom of religion first amendment clause. Previous attempts to question the status of the church over taxes have gone no where. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/21/u...step-in-tax-exemption-fight.html?pagewanted=2
For example as well. A church (not catholic) opened a school and some type of retirment community. Both local and state seeked tax revenue claiming the new additions were not the direct church so could be taxed. these are two different states and on two sides of the country but the same church. The attempt to collect taxes from the school was almost immediatley dropped. Suppose whosever idea it was probably received a phone call.. Last i knew the retirement community still hadn't paid taxes. It had been in court for a couple years already.
But this is nothing new and didn't even begin in the united states. The churches have a history of not paying taxes to governments. The catholic church i dont believe has for the last thousand years to any country. They were exempt from tax in ancient egypt just as well as they are today. Other christian churches the same. The idea of separation of church and state but even the first draft of the magna carta protected church assets from being taken by the government. This could stem from the acquisition of lands taken from the church under king henry. The idea the churches and their property would always be protected from the governments from that point.
But oddly enough the church has actually IMPOSED TAXES and people have paid taxes to support the church..
we have a catholic school a couple towns over from us. The town it is in actually gives money (from tax revenue) to the catholic school. Not the school giving the town money. Apparently it considers the schools operation beneficial for taking students since the towns school system is at over capacity. The catholic school actually releases a budget to the town (it is more efficient than the public school in town) and then the town gives them so much money. This is on top of what people also pay to send their children to the catholic school.
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http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/st...church-challenges-tax-status-of-hall-1.987581
for case in point. If the church is not tax exempt it allows the government to acquire church land and property. I believe this problem was recognized from king henry in which the "charter of liberties" resulted, carried to the magna carta and transferring over in some of the beliefs as many things did when the u.s. was first founded. Because of this it is considered a violation of the freedom of religion, separation of church and state etc.
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chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Actually, if you read the text of the Pope's address at Holyrood - which I am sure you and the other atheists who have posted on this thread have before commeting - you'll see that the Pope is not, in fact, making sweeping generalizations about atheists. He is, rather, talking about "atheism extremism," which marked part of the 20th century.
The germane part of the Pope's address reads:
Look at the context of what the pope is saying. That's hardly a denunciation of every atheist.
Your post that quoted Mein Kampf making reference to religion was funny since Hitler saw the Catholic Church as one of the biggest barriers to his plans. As just one example, Mit Brennende Sorge, for instance, was the only papal encyclical ever to be proulgated in a language other than Latin and was read from the pulpit of every Catholic Church in Germany on Palm Sunday in 1937.
The result was a Hitler saying the encyclical was a declaraton of war by the Church against his preciosu Reich - something for which he vowed revenge. This resulted in visits by the Gestapo to every Catholic diocese to confiscate the text, the closing of every publishing house tha printed th letter, staging trials of Catholic monks and priests that they falsely accused of homosexuality and making sure there was a maximum of publicity.
Additionaly, Hitler had these great things to say about Christianity and religion in general(all quotes from Hitler's Table Talk):
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together."
Hmmm, interesting.
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure."
And doesn't every Christian think this? Wait.
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the state."
Because a Christian likes nothing better than to make sure his church can't preach if doing so would mean critisizing the state. Or something.
"The reason why the ancient wold was so pure,lightand serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
Yep. That's a very Christian attitude.
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt synthesis betwee National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself."
Which is to be expected from a man who headed the National Christian Party. Oh, wait. He was with the National SOCIALISTS, that's right. Huh. Weird thing to say for a Christian!
And, lt we forget, according to Hitler, "the heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Chistianity," which was an "invention of the Jew."
Wow, now that's high praise indeed coming from Hitler! Or maybe not.
Now, if you want to seriously argue that Hitler and Naziism weren't atheistic you can. But can you honestly argue that he was a Christian? Only in the sense that every baptized person is. All the quotes you provided from Mein Kampf were from before Hitler's rise to power. I find it telling that he was singing a different song once he was calling the shots.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Well, no.
A Catholic priest cannot "de-baptize" anyone. According to the Church, baptism leaves "an indellible mark" on one's soul. There's is nothing you can do to "de-baptize" yourself.
What you can do is formally renounce the faith. This can be done simply buy officially joining another church, making a public staement to the effect that you no longer believe, or something similar.
But the whole "de-baptizing" thing is simply a PR move desgned to insult the Church. No big deal, but hardly effective at "removing" one's baptism. Your statement above that doing this requires a priest and the chrch to be involved is actually rather funny in that sense. Someone has simply fooled you.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I'm sure you're aware that Pope Benedict was forced to join the Hitler Youth, right? Sure you were since it's pretty well known that membership was mandatory for any German boy 14 years or older. I'm also sure you knew that Benedict refused to attend meetings, that his parents - especially his father - were opposed to the Nazis, and that the Nazis killed one of Benedict's cousins when he was 14 because he was "unfit" due to having Downs Syndrome (hardly an act that would endear one to the murderers of your family member).
How ham-handed of you. The fact that you made such a ridiculous assertion about Benedict doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence that you know much about the scandal.
Pax,
Chris
Omar B
Senior Master
But what the hell is athist extremism? For there to be extremism there must be some sort of organization to begin with. I mean, what does an extreme atheist do? Launch crusades? Inquisitions? Suicide bombings? Sleeper cells? Questioning ideas held near and dear to people's hearts? Its just the Pope useing buzz words to turn the public ire towards something else rather than the kid touching like jangling keys in front of a toddler.
I did include quotes from after his rise to power, not just from the book. Its not like Nazis used a cross for their imagry right? After all the swastica in christianity represents the resurrection? I guess you could argue he was crazy and spoke out both sides of his mouth (which I will accept) but Hitler was a christian (like the catholics say "once baptized") and a pure Germanic interpretation of christianity was one of his aims as written by him in his book (Hitler youth even had morning devotions at camp every day). He may have grown antagonistic towards it later on but he wrote on christianity and god in his book and in his speeches after his rise to power. I've read the speeches and books, I'm quite sure they are available in English too.
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OP
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
That is correct according to catholic doctrine. So if you decide that you don't believe in the Catholic Christian God, then de-baptism doesn't even make sense, because by doing it you would admit that there is something to be undone in the first place ... which there isn't if you don't believe in it
.This is one of the reasons that I haven't done that, and most likely never will. The Catholic church holds no power over me. I don't need middle men between me and God.
But the thing I mentioned is really known as de-baptism here and it is indeed as you say. The baptism is supposedly an indelible mark, but you can get stricken from the list of church members or however they call it, and it is basically done to give the church the finger. And in the current climate in Belgium, there is really no shortage of people wanting to do that.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
The necessity of an organization is debateable. What is needed is a belief taken to an exreme.
Do you know how many people the ateist regimes of the USSR and China and otehr communist countries have killed? They were all motivated by ther ideology which iwas based on atheistic materialism. They make the Inquisition and Crusades look like child's play. At leas whe you know the actual history of those events.
It most assuredly is not. If you had read the address he made you'd know that.
People have made the argument that the swastika is a "hooked cross" and indicative of the resurrection but I find that a bit of a stretch. I've seen images of "Christian swastikas" and the imagery used is generally different from that in a Buddhist, Hindu or Nazi swastika much like the supposed Jewish swastikas. In other words, it's a stylized abstraction of an already existing symbol.
Except his idea of a "pure Germanic" Christianity is, as I demonstrated, antithetical to actual Christianity.
What I demostrated was that Hitler was anti-Christian. Whether or not he became that way or was that way when he wrote Mein Kampf (since his presentation of Christainity in that work is debateable; was he talking about Christianity or about the Christianity that was "an invention of the Jew"? It's not as if he was ignorant of propeganda and what would motivate the people, after all.)
Bt the pont remains: Hitler was anti-Christian. Vehemently so, in fact. Ignoring that fact or minimizing it because he might have started out not diametrically opposed to it is simply to ignore facts.
Pax,
Chris
OP
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Well, there are people who don't believe in God, and then there are people who REALLY don't believe in God
But more serious, his popishnesh was talking about people actively pushing for true secularization of their country, meaning that the Church does not hold any special privileges or influence anymore. Apparently, the whole idea that criminals have to be brought before a court of law is too much to bear.
So this would make me both an extreme atheist and a believer.
Bit of a pickle, that
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
That is correct according to catholic doctrine. So if you decide that you don't believe in the Catholic Christian God, then de-baptism doesn't even make sense, because by doing it you would admit that there is something to be undone in the first place ... which there isn't if you don't believe in it
This is one of the reasons that I haven't done that, and most likely never will. The Catholic church holds no power over me. I don't need middle men between me and God.
But the thing I mentioned is really known as de-baptism here and it is indeed as you say. The baptism is supposedly an indelible mark, but you can get stricken from the list of church members or however they call it, and it is basically done to give the church the finger. And in the current climate in Belgium, there is really no shortage of people wanting to do that.
Which means, as I pointed out, your statement about priests and churches needing to be involvd is nonsensical. You might want to spread the word. If you're interested in the truth.
Pax,
Chris
Marginal
Senior Master
It's an intentionally distracting topic to derail any focus on the whole child molesting priests who were protected by the church thing.
OP
OP
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
I know it doesn't make sense from a theological point of view.
However, it DOES make sense if your motivation is to explicitly tell the church that you are so disenchanted that you want to have nothing to do with them anymore, ever again.
To go back to my political analogy: tearing up your membership card in public is nonsensical as well. You just don't vote for them anymore. But that doesn't mean that the act of tearing it up is nonsensical. It isn't. Sometimes it is the right thing to stand up and tell the institution to stuff it.
From my taxes - it cost over Ā£20M to pay for the security, accommodation and whatnot for for this visit. They (my government) agreed to treat it as a 'State' visit, so his Holiness didn't have to put his hand in his own pocket.
Why they agreed to this I don't know and I certainly don't want this man or what he represents in my country; we have enough religious fundamentalists as it is without adding or encouraging more.
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