The pope...

[Omar B]

In keeping with the whole Pope angle, I saw this and thought it was funny.

 

[bribrius]

Ok, a half answer that does not take into account that he considered himself a christian ... which in most cases is the basis of identifying someone as a christian, self identification. Like people who don't go to church and call themselves christian, they are, because they say so. Nicely cut and pasted though.

His being a christian does not reflect upon you or your church or whoever. I'm quite sure you are not a mass murdering psychopath so shooing Hitler away is not even necessary. Just like some priests touching boys does not mean they all do. I don't expect any other christian to be held responsible for his actions. Crazy is crazy.

so if i say i am a satanist but my version of satan is mary poppins you would still consider me one because of my self identification?
i have no concern of it reflecting on me or anyone else. I just disagree with you. Given your sig line i expected a much different argument than the normal atheist stance.

 

[bribrius]

Both of Marx's parents were converted Jews. Which has nothing to do with materialism or social darwinism.



So am I. You will find that doesn't explain much.



Darwin was religious for a large portion of his life. Later on, he described himself as an agnostic.



No he wasn't. Did Darwin invent neo-Darwinism, even though it was invented after his death? Others came up with the concept based on his work on biological evolution. His name being in the title proves nothing. Darwin himself was against ranking races of man by evolutionary pedigree. He was against the appropriation and mistreatment of native peoples. He thought social policy should not be guided by the concept of struggle and survival in nature. You tell me if that sounds like a social darwinist. Of course, it's pretty clear you are just throwing around emotionally loaded catchphrases without a true understanding of the history and how they do or do not apply.

where is the link?

 

[Omar B]

so if i say i am a satanist but my version of satan is mary poppins you would still consider me one because of my self identification?
i have no concern of it reflecting on me or anyone else. I just disagree with you. Given your sig line i expected a much different argument than the normal atheist stance.

Don't expect anything from me based upon what you think is the "normal atheist." Atheists are not a club, a church or anything of the sort, we are all individuals who happen to agree on one topic. Just like you are an atheist where it comes to an issue like Thor, Odin, Zeus, a person who does not believe in Thor is not expected to act in a certain way now are they.

If you say you are a Satanist, then fine, you are a Satanist. I know quite a few Satanists and they tend to be great people.

Fact is his self identification along with cardinals and many heads of churches much higher and most likley more holy than the regular christian say he was, he knew himself and these men certainly knew him so I'm more apt the believe him than someone who says "that's not how christians act." Because we all know, belief systems don't dictate how people act in most cases (ask in jail houses, the unwed mothers, etc who consider themselves christian). Not that anyone really needs a second or third opinion on what they are after they have said it.

How about Doug Pinnik singer/bass player from the band King's X. He's identifies as a homosexual, but he practices a celibate lifestyle. By your argument he's not gay because he doesn't have sex with men. Same way, Hitler identifies as a christian, many identify him as a christian, but he didn't conduct himself as you think a christian should act, but not all christians carry on their lives to the letter of the bible now do they?

 

[Cirdan]

Just like you are an atheist where it comes to an issue like Thor, Odin, Zeus, a person who does not believe in Thor is not expected to act in a certain way now are they.

Why wouldn`t anyone want to believe in Thor? He makes it rain so we get a good harvest, puts up nice rainbows, kills giants and likes to party!

Thor and Baldur:

Odin does the cristian god a favor:

more here:
http://www.odinandfriends.com/webcomic-start

 

[Omar B]

I'm all for it!

 

[bribrius]

Don't expect anything from me based upon what you think is the "normal atheist." Atheists are not a club, a church or anything of the sort, we are all individuals who happen to agree on one topic. Just like you are an atheist where it comes to an issue like Thor, Odin, Zeus, a person who does not believe in Thor is not expected to act in a certain way now are they.

If you say you are a Satanist, then fine, you are a Satanist. I know quite a few Satanists and they tend to be great people.

Fact is his self identification along with cardinals and many heads of churches much higher and most likley more holy than the regular christian say he was, he knew himself and these men certainly knew him so I'm more apt the believe him than someone who says "that's not how christians act." Because we all know, belief systems don't dictate how people act in most cases (ask in jail houses, the unwed mothers, etc who consider themselves christian). Not that anyone really needs a second or third opinion on what they are after they have said it.

How about Doug Pinnik singer/bass player from the band King's X. He's identifies as a homosexual, but he practices a celibate lifestyle. By your argument he's not gay because he doesn't have sex with men. Same way, Hitler identifies as a christian, many identify him as a christian, but he didn't conduct himself as you think a christian should act, but not all christians carry on their lives to the letter of the bible now do they?

homo doug would have to start to kill other homosexuals and then denounce homosexuality. Then it would be a fair comparison. And doug couldn't be just gay. Because hitler didnt believe the normal jesus scenario but had his own version. Homo doug would have to be transvestite gay or something. Or maybe gay but with farm animals.

 

[bribrius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Braun



we almost forgot about eva.....

 

[Ramirez]

This whole debate about when Hitler was a Christian, if he was a Christian etc. seem to ignore the whole point that he learned to be anti-semitic by growing up in an anti-semitic society where it was condoned by various Christian denominations.

The founder of the Lutheran church and ex Catholic had this to say.

In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

is it any wonder with attitudes like that in Christianity that Hitler and his ilk ended up persecuting jews, no matter what they may have said about Christianity in the latter part of their lives?

 

[Omar B]

homo doug would have to start to kill other homosexuals and then denounce homosexuality. Then it would be a fair comparison. And doug couldn't be just gay. Because hitler didnt believe the normal jesus scenario but had his own version. Homo doug would have to be transvestite gay or something. Or maybe gay but with farm animals.

Homo Doug? Are you normally this rude and offensive? I think you missed the point of the self identification annalogy and went straight for mass murder. Lol.

If you continually wish to blank out Hitler's self identification or the acknowledgement of the church and it's fathers in Germany theb fine. Blanking out the facts of reality is always an option I see.

 

[Ramirez]

Homo Doug? Are you normally this rude and offensive?

QFT...couldn't just say Pinnik could he? Must be a Christian thing.

 

[Omar B]

QFT...couldn't just say Pinnik could he? Must be a Christian thing.

Yeah dude. Fact is though Doug is gay he is a very devout christian, Kings X is a christian metal band. He is celebate because when he came to the realization he decided rather than sin he would just be celebate.

 

[bribrius]

Yeah dude. Fact is though Doug is gay he is a very devout christian, Kings X is a christian metal band. He is celebate because when he came to the realization he decided rather than sin he would just be celebate.

i was just using a abbreviation. One from the text of your post. Homo is a abbreviated homosexual. I actually dont know or really care to know who he is.....

 

[Omar B]

Calling someone a "homo" is not an abbreviation, it's an insult and you know it. Do not try to clothe your insult as something other than what it is. If you don't get that I suppose it's something you have to work on.

 

[elder999]

Oh, for Godwin's sake! :lfao:

Hitler was way more complicated than simply "Christian." It was his secretary Martin Bormann who said that Chrisitianity and Nazism were incompatible, though.Hitler didn't squawk about it, though. Additionally, he made Nazism the official state religion, and replaced school Bibles with Mein Kampf.

Without going into uneccessary details, Hitler and his pals had a definite neo-pagan tilt to them, and stated repeatedly that they wanted to do away with Christianity. Paradoxically, though, in 1941, Hitler told General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

 

[elder999]

As it turns out, the reality is beyond awful. There was a lot of abuse, and a lot of cover up. People here are calling out for justice; mainly for the guilty ones to be expelled from the church, and for the church to take a firm stance against this sort of thing.

Before I get into the rest of this, I have to say that I agree with what people are mainly calling for-seems simple enough, but...

Instead, we've seen the following reactions from the pope, over the last couple of weeks
1) We don't need structural reformation or punishment. We need to focus on introspection and genuine repentance.

On the one hand this is a genuinely Christian sentiment-one that simply doesn't address the problem. More on that later, though. Fact is, that as the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ,Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province,Servant of the Servants of God, and Sovereign of State of Vatican City, (not to mention CEO of Catholic Church, Inc. :lol: ) this is the party line-tragically, the Church's response on the whole to this problem is wholly inadequate because it's the church.

Until some time in the 90's, The Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete was just down the road from my old house in the Jemez. Interestingly, it was founded by Father Gerald Fitzgerald-to minister to priests who had problems with alchoholism, drugs or celibacy. OVer the years, against his objections, they also came to try to treat priests who sexually abused children. Oddlt enough though, there's a record of Father Fitzgerald writing letters to various diocese and the Vatican stating his position that priests couldn't be cured of this problem, shouldn't be permitted near children, and, in the worst cases, should be immediately defrocked.

So, the Catholic church has had access to this information, and informed opinion on it for many years. It's worth noting, though, that for a great many of those years, the position of psychiatric professionals was that these men could be treated, cured and returned to the situations where they practiced abuse.

3) Pedophilia is a disease that overrides free will, so the clergymen are not to blame for what they do.

It's not for me to say that they're not to blame-more like they just can't help it, and, once identified, should not be permitted near children. I don't get why it is that no one in the church's heirarchy doesn't get this, even now, when it's costing them so much.