The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[Juany118]

You assume wrong

Then I don't see why you appear to be down playing the issues of using shirts and the like as a "tool" for takedowns on the street because they all too often rip easily and if you use them to "garrote" someone as you put it you are treading on dangerous ground legally.

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[guy b]

T shirts can be used very easily against another person in grappling. They can provide an anchor point for an untrained person to stiff arm against someone trying to grapple, making unclothed grappling methods much harder to pull off and much lower %

If you grab the whole back and bunch it over the near side arm it provides a good grip which also immobilises that arm, excellent entry to a really hard forward throw with one arm out of the way, and hard to break your fall with a wrapped arm.

If you grab the back with one or both hands you can pull it over and down on the head, obstructing vision, impeding arms, and providing an excellent handle to snap down and grab the waistband, which can then be used for a KO backwards throw like osotogari, or a powerful forwards hip throw

Choking someone out is very friendly, legally speaking, in my experience. It doesn't look like you did anything much. Drunk friend sleeping it off- who cares? A person with grappling experience will not kill anyone doing this, unless they are old and infirm, in which case why are you choking them out?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That and the fact that they are illegal in Olympic judo.

I believe the idea to "let your hand to do your leg job" is not popular in Judo. In another Judo forum, someone asked what the Judo name for the following throwing technique. So far nobody has come up a name for it.

In SC, it's called "手别 (Shou Bie) - hand block" that you use your hand to block your opponent's leg in stead of to use your leg to block your opponent's leg.

More "hand attack leg" SC throws.

 

[Juany118]

T shirts can be used very easily against another person in grappling. They can provide an anchor point for an untrained person to stiff arm against someone trying to grapple, making unclothed grappling methods much harder to pull off and much lower %

If you grab the whole back and bunch it over the near side arm it provides a good grip which also immobilises that arm, excellent entry to a really hard forward throw with one arm out of the way, and hard to break your fall with a wrapped arm.

If you grab the back with one or both hands you can pull it over and down on the head, obstructing vision, impeding arms, and providing an excellent handle to snap down and grab the waistband, which can then be used for a KO backwards throw like osotogari, or a powerful forwards hip throw

Choking someone out is very friendly, legally speaking, in my experience. It doesn't look like you did anything much. Drunk friend sleeping it off- who cares? A person with grappling experience will not kill anyone doing this, unless they are old and infirm, in which case why are you choking them out?

Well choking people out isn't actually legally friendly unless you can justify that it was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. You are best served saving that for a situation where you are justified in using a deadly weapon. As for the rest, again, I acknowledge there are uses BUT you gloss over or ignore the disadvantages with things like (paraphrase) "oh if you do rip the shirt use it as a garrote" which is, again, a bad idea from a legal perspective as described above.

Remember there is a BIG difference between a carotid restraint and how a garrote functions. The wind pipe can be easily crushed in the use of a garrote, where as a properly used carotid restraint simply robs the brain of blood flow and doesn't endanger the airway.

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[guy b]

Well choking people out isn't actually legally friendly unless you can justify that it was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. You are best served saving that for a situation where you are justified in using a deadly weapon. As for the rest, again, I acknowledge there are uses BUT you gloss over or ignore the disadvantages with things like (paraphrase) "oh if you do rip the shirt use it as a garrote" which is, again, a bad idea from a legal perspective as described above.

Remember there is a BIG difference between a carotid restraint and how a garrote functions. The wind pipe can be easily crushed in the use of a garrote, where as a properly used carotid restraint simply robs the brain of blood flow and doesn't endanger the airway.

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Legally it looks much better to choke an aggressive person out than to punch them repeatedly in the face, especially when played back on CCTV.

I didn't say that you should use the shirt to choke if it rips. I did say that a t-shirt is excellent for chokes, because it is. You can rip a t-shirt intentionally if you like and use to tie up, or you can grab and bunch in places where ripping is unlikely, like the armpit or the whole of the back.

As for the chokes advice? Thanks, I am ok. A "choke" in BJJ is a choke or a strangle. Obviously anyone with any clue is strangling, not crushing windpipes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe the idea to "let your hand to do your leg job" is not popular in Judo. In another Judo forum, someone asked what the Judo name for the following throwing technique. So far nobody has come up a name for it.

In SC, it's called "手别 (Shou Bie) - hand block" that you use your hand to block your opponent's leg in stead of to use your leg to block your opponent's leg.

More "hand attack leg" SC throws.

That first one looks similar to a throw we have late in the NGA curriculum. I think that's the first time I've run into it outside that art. Cool to see it!

 

[Juany118]

Legally it looks much better to choke an aggressive person out than to punch them repeatedly in the face, especially when played back on CCTV.

I didn't say that you should use the shirt to choke if it rips. I did say that a t-shirt is excellent for chokes, because it is. You can rip a t-shirt intentionally if you like and use to tie up, or you can grab and bunch in places where ripping is unlikely, like the armpit or the whole of the back.

Lol at your chokes advice. Thanks, I am ok with applying blood chokes.

U used the term garrote, that is a tool for choking. Now if you said "you can use it to restrain someone that's different but that requires additional specialized training if you wish to do so against an actively resisting subject.

I am also not questioning your skill in the use of a choke hold, I am saying that a choke hold is often seen as Lethal Force in the US depending on the jurisdiction. Even if it is not seen as Lethal Force in a particular jurisdiction you still have to be able to show that compromising an airway was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. As discretion is the better part of valor in my opinion and one should only resort to a choke hold as a last resort for your own legal protection. This may not be an issue where you live but it is an issue where I live.

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[guy b]

U used the term garrote, that is a tool for choking.

Or strangling.

Now if you said "you can use it to restrain someone that's different but that requires additional specialized training if you wish to do so against an actively resisting subject.

I was taking about strangling someone until they lose consciousness in the case of a violent attack. Seems quite reasonable to me. Strangling and choking are both called choking in BJJ.

Even if it is not seen as Lethal Force in a particular jurisdiction you still have to be able to show that compromising an airway was objectively reasonable under the circumstances.

Compromising an airway?

I think you are confused.

Gently "choking" (i.e. strangling) someone out doesn't look like anything on CCTV and most people won't even know what they are looking at. Punching someone in the face definitely looks like a violent assault.

 

[guy b]

We appear to have gone from judo is no good because it wasn't designed for warfare and not lethal enough (I reminded you that judo much more effective than trad ju jitsu due to training method), to judo no good because it uses uniforms and useless without them (I reminded you that people wear clothes and the techniques are actually very applicable to normal and even minimal garb), to judo no good because you will crush someone's windpipe and end up in jail (I reminded you anyone with a clue will be doing blood not air choke, duh, and that battering someone to the ground using your fists also doesn't look too good from a legal perspective).

It sems that you will argue about absolutely anything, even stuff you know nothing about, and never admit when you are wrong, which is often? I'm going to bed now, enough time wasted.

 

[Juany118]

Or strangling.



I was taking about strangling someone until they lose consciousness in the case of a violent attack. Seems quite reasonable to me. Strangling and choking are both called choking in BJJ.



Compromising an airway?

I think you are confused.

Gently "choking" (i.e. strangling) someone out doesn't look like anything on CCTV and most people won't even know what they are looking at. Punching someone in the face definitely looks like a violent assault.

If you choke someone by definition, even if only temporarily, you have compromised the airway. If the airway wasn't compromised they would not have been robbed of oxygen, hence they would not have blacked out.

As for the last in essence what you are saying is "it doesn't matter if it's lethal force I can pull it off without it looking like much."

Imo that is a dangerous attitude to have. Secondly if you are having a straight up fight with a resisting subject and somehow manage to put a "gentle" chokehold on said resisting subject clearly your limb is in a position where the airway is blocked and when they pass out... Yeah it's pretty obvious you applied a choke hold.

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[Juany118]

We appear to have gone from judo is no good because it wasn't designed for warfare and not lethal enough (I reminded you that judo much more effective than trad ju jitsu due to training method), to judo no good because it uses uniforms and useless without them (I reminded you that people wear clothes and the techniques are actually very applicable to normal and even minimal garb), to judo no good because you will crush someone's windpipe and end up in jail (I reminded you anyone with a clue will be doing blood not air choke, duh, and that battering someone to the ground using your fists also doesn't look too good from a legal perspective).

It sems that you will argue about absolutely anything, even stuff you know nothing about, and never admit when you are wrong, which is often? I'm going to bed now, enough time wasted.

No what we had was a conversation that went over, step by step, my issues. It was noted in this thread, and another, the issue with "sport arts" that are created by the particular rule set. The uniform is part of that ruleset. There was little more than clarification.

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[Transk53]

We appear to have gone from judo is no good because it wasn't designed for warfare and not lethal enough (I reminded you that judo much more effective than trad ju jitsu due to training method), to judo no good because it uses uniforms and useless without them (I reminded you that people wear clothes and the techniques are actually very applicable to normal and even minimal garb), to judo no good because you will crush someone's windpipe and end up in jail (I reminded you anyone with a clue will be doing blood not air choke, duh, and that battering someone to the ground using your fists also doesn't look too good from a legal perspective, and that you are in a fight so you have to do what you have to do).

It sems that you will argue about absolutely anything, even stuff you know nothing about, and never admit when you are wrong, which is often? I'm going to bed now, enough time wasted.

Rubbish.

 

[Buka]

I'm distrustful of anyone who claims to teach self defense.

Uh oh. When people ask me what I teach, I usually say "self defense". But, you know what, I wouldn't trust me, either. I'm a shady kind of guy.

I think it matters only in that it helps identify where the conflict is coming from. Tma is from mars and mma is from Venus. Or some such.

TMA are from Mars and MMA are from Venus, but McDojos are from Uranus.

 

[guy b]

If you choke someone by definition, even if only temporarily, you have compromised the airway. If the airway wasn't compromised they would not have been robbed of oxygen, hence they would not have blacked out.

In BJJ both strangles and chokes are called "chokes". Strangling does not compromise an airway.

Imo that is a dangerous attitude to have. Secondly if you are having a straight up fight with a resisting subject and somehow manage to put a "gentle" chokehold on said resisting subject clearly your limb is in a position where the airway is blocked and when they pass out... Yeah it's pretty obvious you applied a choke hold.

Against someone with no clue what they are doing it is quite easy to choke (i.e. strangle) using the collar without it looking like much and possible to do it very quickly. It isn't deadly force because no irreversible damage happens, they merely lose consciousness. No windpipe crushed, no hyoid bone broken.

 

[guy b]

No what we had was a conversation that went over, step by step, my issues. It was noted in this thread, and another, the issue with "sport arts" that are created by the particular rule set. The uniform is part of that ruleset. There was little more than clarification

Your "issues" appear to be based on nothing more than ignorance of grappling. When this is pointed out you just move to a different issue. You appear to lack the ability to admit you didn't know something or that you might have been misinformed.

 

[guy b]

Rubbish.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Steve]

Uh oh. When people ask me what I teach, I usually say "self defense". But, you know what, I wouldn't trust me, either. I'm a shady kind of guy.



TMA are from Mars and MMA are from Venus, but McDojos are from Uranus.

What does Captain Kirk and toilet paper have in common? They both orbit Uranus looking for klingons.

And you don't teach self defense. You teach people to become killers.

 

[Flying Crane]

In BJJ both strangles and chokes are called "chokes". Strangling does not compromise an airway.



Against someone with no clue what they are doing it is quite easy to choke (i.e. strangle) using the collar without it looking like much and possible to do it very quickly. It isn't deadly force because no irreversible damage happens, they merely lose consciousness. No windpiple crushed, no hyoid bone broken.

I'm not sure why I'm even jumping in here, but the loss of consciousness is due to the carotid being pinched, and stopping or at least diminishing the blood flow to the brain. Block it off for too long, and there most definitely is permanent damage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And you don't teach self defense. You teach people to become killers.

You can teach "sport" which is neither self-defense nor killing.

 

[Nobody Important]

In BJJ both strangles and chokes are called "chokes". Strangling does not compromise an airway.



Against someone with no clue what they are doing it is quite easy to choke (i.e. strangle) using the collar without it looking like much and possible to do it very quickly. It isn't deadly force because no irreversible damage happens, they merely lose consciousness. No windpiple crushed, no hyoid bone broken.

I mostly agree, with the exception that, any strangulation involving the carotid artery runs the risk of carotid sinus reflex, which will result in death if one doesn't know how to reopen the carotid. I agree that strangulation involving the airway is potentially more dangerous. Another factor is with cutting off the blood supply to the brain the recipient is likely unaware anything is happening until too late. Airway chokes are immediately noticed and generally cause the recipient to spaz out because they can't breathe, plus there is greater risk to compromising the integrity of the airway.