The Legalization of Marijuana

[Deuce]

... and if they want to keep marijuana illegal, then try and outlaw cigarettes, and booze.

Hey man!! Don't talk crazy! Weed is alright, but it ain't no cigarettes and booze. You can outlaw cigarettes as soon as I quit.

 

[raedyn]

But don't outlaw freakin' booze... we all drink too damn much of it! *wink*

 

[Rynocerous]

:btg:


If it came off as serious, please do as the smileys...

:wah: I just couldn't live without my booze!!!

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[Feisty Mouse]

It's funny - this reminds me of a conversation I overheard in an airport shuttle bus yesterday. One gentleman (who wanted to keep talking, apparently) was talking to another man he had apparently just met, about sleeping, and how sleep-deprived most people are. (Which I had no argument with, although he was quoting statistics left and right I had never heard before, but that's another story.)

Anyways, the gentleman he was talking to agreed that a lot of sleep is a good thing, but some days he could only get 2-3 hours of sleep, because of his work schedule. And then they started talking about caffeine, and how people drink it so much. The sleep-deprived person said, "I have to have my caffeine! I can't function without it!"

As a nice example - between nicotine, caffeine, or alcohol, almost every person one interacts with is likely to be on a stimulant or depressant at some point during their day. Another reason I find it so weird at how negatively some folks react to pot. Most pot-smokers I know and have knwn don't smoke so much that they cannot function, but use it as other who have a glass of wine or something at the end of a long day - as a self-medicating means to relax.

And, as was mentioned earlier and I completely forgot to follow up on, I think our prisons should be emptied of the pot users - it's asinine.

 

[Rynocerous]

Not to mention that it costs the tax payers millions of dollars in court related fees alone. It shouldn't be punished unless it is a huge amount.


Cheers,

Ryan

 

[psi_radar]

LOL, poet & didn't know it? Very true with the drug testing.

The reason is because any average Joe can grow weed and sell it to minors. Very few people actually make beer with the intent to sell it to minors for profit. Weed will always be easy for minors to access, although, if we legalize maijuana, like you said the black market will take a hit. Though do you really think it will be cheaper than black market prices? Cigarettes up here in Canada are up to 11 dollars a pack, and still rising. Just speculating but I wouldn't doubt that if it were legal it would cost even more. In this case I think it is hard to use that as an argument because minors will always have access to booze, smokes, weed, X, coke, etc. I think it's up to the parents and the school to educate the children at a young age on the affects of drugs. Now I realize most kids like to rebel against "society" and do drugs in spite, and there is nothing that we can do. In those cases it is sad but they need to learn the hard way(the back of your hand!!).

Anyone CAN grow weed, but it's also quite difficult for a minor to do an indoor operation without their parents getting wind (ha ha) of it. "Hey Mom, that's just my pet invisible skunk!" And would anyone really grow their own if Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds produce products that are heavily marketed, convenient, and available at a reasonable price? Probably the same proportion of people that only drink their own homebrew beer. The prices will surely be much lower than they stand today. Even with marketing and packaging costs, mass produced marijuana will be cheaper simply because it can be done in the open and with industrial growth practices at work. The black market prices you see today aren't indicative of the price of manufacture, buy instead are fueled by risk + supply and demand.

I agree that education is a good way for kids to understand what they're doing with their bodies when they experiment, but it won't keep them from experimenting. Humans have been seeking a buzz as long as our historical record can track. I don't think we'll stop anytime soon. This is another reason prohibition doesn't work--there will always be a demand for drugs. If we spent half the money on treatment and education that we do on enforcement, drugs wouldn't be such a blight on our society.

This is a very good point. I know several very important people that smoke weed, but keep it in the dark because will frown upon it. I had a doctor once that smoked weed, and was a very good doctor. I mentioned my friend the bus driver in an earlier post. My point is that most people that I know(and that is a lot) actually smoke weed secretly.

*Ahem*, I don't know what you're talking about, I know all about this just from academic research. What you're saying is absolutely true, from my experience. Some years ago I read a survey that stated somewhere along the lines of 80% of Americans had tried dope at some point in their lives. Yet we continue to put people in jail for behavior we have most likely participated in, or services we demanded ourselves. Around here, it's not an immediate disqualification on a patrolman's application to admit to smoking at some point. Interesting little bit of hypocracy we've got going on here.

[/QUOTE]
These are all on the same line in my eyes, and if they want to keep marijuana illegal, then try and outlaw cigarettes, and booze. [/QUOTE]

Them's fighting words!

 

[psi_radar]

I think our prisons should be emptied of the pot users - it's asinine.

Hear Hear!

 

[Rynocerous]

Anyone CAN grow weed, but it's also quite difficult for a minor to do an indoor operation without their parents getting wind (ha ha) of it. "Hey Mom, that's just my pet invisible skunk!" And would anyone really grow their own if Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds produce products that are heavily marketed, convenient, and available at a reasonable price? Probably the same proportion of people that only drink their own homebrew beer. The prices will surely be much lower than they stand today. Even with marketing and packaging costs, mass produced marijuana will be cheaper simply because it can be done in the open and with industrial growth practices at work. The black market prices you see today aren't indicative of the price of manufacture, buy instead are fueled by risk + supply and demand.

I agree that education is a good way for kids to understand what they're doing with their bodies when they experiment, but it won't keep them from experimenting. Humans have been seeking a buzz as long as our historical record can track. I don't think we'll stop anytime soon. This is another reason prohibition doesn't work--there will always be a demand for drugs. If we spent half the money on treatment and education that we do on enforcement, drugs wouldn't be such a blight on our society.



*Ahem*, I don't know what you're talking about, I know all about this just from academic research. What you're saying is absolutely true, from my experience. Some years ago I read a survey that stated somewhere along the lines of 80% of Americans had tried dope at some point in their lives. Yet we continue to put people in jail for behavior we have most likely participated in, or services we demanded ourselves. Around here, it's not an immediate disqualification on a patrolman's application to admit to smoking at some point. Interesting little bit of hypocracy we've got going on here.

These are all on the same line in my eyes, and if they want to keep marijuana illegal, then try and outlaw cigarettes, and booze. [/QUOTE]
Them's fighting words!
[/QUOTE]
:whip: LOL, rolling on the floor. Although I disagree that weed will be cheaper. In Canada they will tax the hell out of anything to get money, don't be suprised if it is legalized there is some kind of huge levy, or tax.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Rynocerous: "Though do you really think it will be cheaper than black market prices?"

If natural economic forces are in control then yes. The only reason it wouldn't be is if the companies that sell legal weed decide to keep their prices the same as street prices since that's what people have been happily paying for so long anyway. The motivation for that of course is to make more money. However, if that happened, then buyers would be more likely to just stick with the black market in order to avoid taxes.

I guess the only other reason would be if the price of the product itself goes down, but government regulated taxes put the total cost above street cost. The outcome would be the same. No one would buy legal weed 'cause the dope dealer on the corner has more competitive prices.

All the above is assuming that no one will just decide to grow their own.

To be competitive, legal marijuana-selling companies would have to charge less. In addition, they would have to make the buying of their specific product convenient enough or otherwise attractive, so that people choose to buy their produce at a store instead of growing it themselves.

"The reason is because any average Joe can grow weed and sell it to minors."

Then just keep sale to minors illegal, but allow people to grow for personal use. Heck, even if someone wanted to grow large amounts to sell to adults, it'd be the same as if I grew numerous rose bushes and sold bouquets of flowers to people. The government would miss out on sales tax, but they already do on other tax-free items like produce and other foods. But since it can be used as a drug, sale to minors should probably be restricted.


Deuce: "I support the idea of people being charged for driving and smoking weed, similar to the alcohol laws. But, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't an accurate test for marijuana consumption. ... I know there are many physical signs of being under the influence of marijuana, but an accurate determination of effective THC levels in the body will be needed to charge someone with driving under the influence."

I was thinking the same thing, but I think the solution would be to ignore whatever the person has inside their body, and instead just look at how they are driving. Whether they are under the influence or not, if they are swerving, running stop signs, or driving on the sidewalk, then they are driving dangerously.

psi_radar: "Anyone CAN grow weed, but it's also quite difficult for a minor to do an indoor operation without their parents getting wind (ha ha) of it. "Hey Mom, that's just my pet invisible skunk!" And would anyone really grow their own if Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds produce products that are heavily marketed, convenient, and available at a reasonable price? Probably the same proportion of people that only drink their own homebrew beer. The prices will surely be much lower than they stand today. Even with marketing and packaging costs, mass produced marijuana will be cheaper simply because it can be done in the open and with industrial growth practices at work. The black market prices you see today aren't indicative of the price of manufacture, buy instead are fueled by risk + supply and demand."

Very good points there. The reason why cigarette prices are going up is because of prohibitive taxes - which obviously hasn't done anything to get people to quit or smoke less. Nicotine is physically addictive, people will pay anything to get their fix. If the same thing happened with marijuana, people would either quit because it's too expensive, or just grow their own. I don't think tobacco is as easy to grow or process.

Again, the high cost of cigarrettes have nothing to do with whether they are legal or not. Imagine if tobacco became as illegal as marijuana - it would definitely be a schedule one drug because there is no medical use for it* - sales would go underground and the price of a pack of cigarettes could easily jump to 50 or 100 $$ or more because of black market forces ("risk + supply and demand").

* actually I believe tobacco does have some medical benefit. The stress-relieving / calming effect it has on both the mind and body makes for good mental health. I also believe marijuana has even more and better medical uses, yet I'm sure if both were illegal they would be in the same category as heroine and cocaine (which also have medical uses).

Just the fact that every other drug in existance (legal or not) is more dangerous than marijuana is enough to make any argument about drugs being illegal for medical reasons completely stupid.

Rynocerous: "In Canada they will tax the hell out of anything to get money, don't be suprised if it is legalized there is some kind of huge levy, or tax."

Believe me, the U.S. government is just as greedy for $$, but I still don't think it would make sense. Economic forces of supply and demand and competitiveness would drive people to buy whatever is cheaper and more convenient.

Case in point: In many areas of the U.S. prices of cigarettes have been rising sharply. In some states they have gone from $2 a pack to $4 a pack or more. In New York, I hear the prices are ridiculous. In places like the carolinas, however, the prices are still reletively low, so you know what happens? People travel to where the cigarettes are cheapest, buy in bulk, and then return to their home state to sell cigarettes on the black market.

 

[raedyn]

People travel to where the cigarettes are cheapest, buy in bulk, and then return to their home state to sell cigarettes on the black market.

This happens In Canada, too. But I don't know in what quantities. If you think $4 for a pack of smokes is steep, though try coming here! Prices across the country are minimum $10/20pk.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Another reason I'm glad I don't smoke!

 

[Rynocerous]

This is why I quit smoking. Actually in many Canadian cities you are not allowed to smoke in public buildings. Here in my city it is changing over Jan. 1st, and I personally can't wait. If they legalized marijuana, I feel that it should only be smoked in "Hemp shops", and at the privacy of your own home. Some people will chose to not smoke it and shouldn't have to breathe in the second hand smoke. I know if I was having a buisness luncheon with an important client, I wouldn't want to have someone "hotboxing" me getting me high! LOL, I would probably be more worried about eating than dealing with the client... :ultracool

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[raedyn]

Actually in many Canadian cities you are not allowed to smoke in public buildings.

We sure as hell aren't on the leading edge of this. In California you couldn't smoke in any public building or within a certain distance of the entrance to any of those buildings since before 1997! It's about bleepin time that we showed up to the party!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

How would you like airline pilots to be able to freely use marijuana? What about school bus drivers, metro bus drivers, truck drivers, drivers in general, ...? That's what scares me about legalization. We have enough trouble with drunk drivers, do we have to add drugs to the mix?

I personally think it should remain illegal. And no, I don't drink or smoke, by choice.

WhiteBirch

Let's not say "drugs"...let's say marijuana. Nobody here has advocated for the decrimilization of methapmetamine.

Those drivers and pilots that don't use alcohol do so out of a sense of responsibility and a fear of retribution should they get caught. When an airline pilot gets popped for being drunk he gets fired. His career is ruined. So MOST pilots stay clean. Its reasonable to believe the same pattern would follow with dope. It is currently illegal to fly a plane while drunk or stoned. Make dope legal, but retain the proscription against flying a plane while under its influence. What has changed? Nothing but what the pilot/driver can do on his offtime.

My father drank himself to death. He died alone, puking blood. He was six feet tall and weighed less than my mother at 125 pounds. He refused to eat, only drank. In his final days he was often incontinent, drinking himself into such a stupor that he'd mess himself. Nobody I know of has ever died as a direct result from smoking dope.

Alcohol causes one traffic fatality ever thirty minutes in this country. A quarter of a million people will die in the next decade because of that. Traffic crashes are the greatest single cause of death for persons ages 6–33. About 45% of these fatalities are in alcohol-related crashes. 300,000 people in the next year will be injured. Many will be maimed.

When you add in drunk drivers, a total of 100,000 people will die of alcohol related problems in the next year due to falls, toxicity, liver failure. Alcohol kills 6½ times more youth than all other illicit drugs combined.
A meta-analysis of the data indicates that alcohol is implicated in violent altercations as follows:

Between 28% and 86% of homicide offenders were under the influence.

Between 24% and 37% of assault offenders were under the influence.

Between 13% and 60% of sexual offenders were under the influence.

Between 6% and 57% of male domestic violence assailants and between 10% and 27% of female domestic violence victims were under the influence.

And am I for alcohol prohibition? Hell no.

People rarely get into fights when they're stoned. They tend to drive very slow. And they don't O.D. on pot or die of liver failure. Is it healthy? No. Is it as dangerous as alcohol? Not even close.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Yes, it is incredibly obvious that health and safety have nothing to do with the prohibition of marijuana.

Research into the history of how it became illegal in the first place is very enlightening into reasons why it is likely still illegal now.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Just curious (and lazy) - what were the historical reasons for making marijuana illegal?

 

[Ping898]

People rarely get into fights when they're stoned. They tend to drive very slow. And they don't O.D. on pot or die of liver failure. Is it healthy? No. Is it as dangerous as alcohol? Not even close.

I have to wonder how those numbers would change if it was legal. I mean if you look at who the offenders are, I am willing to bet most of them were under the ifluence of alcohol because it is easy to obtain. If you make weed just as easy to obtain, I think it could become just as big of a problem. And they may drive slow when they are stoned, but they also drive stupid and are just as dangerous as drunk drivers from what I have seen. I think it is as dangerous as alcohol, but we just haven't seen the full impact of it because it is illegal at the moment.
I am all for medicinal uses, but complete decriminalization I think opens a pandora's box.

 

[MA-Caver]

I have to wonder how those numbers would change if it was legal. I mean if you look at who the offenders are, I am willing to bet most of them were under the ifluence of alcohol because it is easy to obtain. If you make weed just as easy to obtain, I think it could become just as big of a problem. And they may drive slow when they are stoned, but they also drive stupid and are just as dangerous as drunk drivers from what I have seen. I think it is as dangerous as alcohol, but we just haven't seen the full impact of it because it is illegal at the moment.
I am all for medicinal uses, but complete decriminalization I think opens a pandora's box.

I'm sure that it's been said here before that Marijuana is a gateway drug; opening the door to harder substances like cocaine and crack and etc. That it's a milder drug than the rest is just down-playing the long term effects, look at Ozzy for example or Keith Moon. Like alcohol some people can use it in small amounts (like a beer or two a day) with little effect on their day to day lives. Some people can use it in large amounts (like a six pack over the weekend) with little effect and some people can use it in copious amounts (like a binge) with little effects. But that's some people. In my experience I've seen marijuana make effective hard-working people into lazy, shiftless ones because of the numbing effects it has.
It's a drug, it's a psychotrophic drug and it has it's dangers like every other drug out there, either long or short term.
When I was using and abusing that was my DOC (drug of choice) because of the mellowing effects it had on an otherwise stressful day at work. Problem is that it's addicting (just like every other drug...including alcohol) and most of my money by week's end was spent on it than the necessities, you know, rent, food, and stuff like that.
While not everyone "loses it" because they smoke the stuff... the numbers are too small to effectively convince law-makers that it's okay enough to legalize it. Prohibition was recended because the law-makers were tired of breaking their own law, that and the violence and other problems making alcohol illegal.
Like Ping said... it just opens Pandora's box if this "Ok drug" gets legal.
You'll see other people saying hey, lets make Crack legal too so guys won't be out there breaking into people's houses and jacking cars to get their drug. Then cocaine then heroin then ... the list goes on.
As a recovering addict of 15 years, I speak from experience that legalizing Marijuana .... is... not... a... good... idea!

my two bits on it.
:asian:

 

[psi_radar]

....
Like Ping said... it just opens Pandora's box if this "Ok drug" gets legal.
You'll see other people saying hey, lets make Crack legal too so guys won't be out there breaking into people's houses and jacking cars to get their drug. Then cocaine then heroin then ... the list goes on.

I'm for drug legalization beyond just marijuana. Regulation removes the black market and the violence surrounding the trade. Addiction needs to be treated on a medical level, not the judicial.

As a recovering addict of 15 years, I speak from experience that legalizing Marijuana .... is... not... a... good... idea!

Though I sympathize with you, I don't agree. It sounds like you had pretty good access to this drug even though it is/was illegal. Those who want access to drugs will always find a way. Though use might spike with legalization, demand after a time will settle down to people who would have used it while it was illegal anyway. In addition, the quality and potency of the drugs can be monitored to ensure safety and consistency.

Nobody really wins when nonviolent offenders are put into jail. We pay for their imprisonment, we don't receive their taxes while they're inside. With legalization, the same use behavior will continue, but we would be able to afford and address treatment by dismantling a good chunk of our criminal "justice" system and help addicts turn their lives around rather than becoming career criminals.

 

[Rynocerous]

I'm sure that it's been said here before that Marijuana is a gateway drug; opening the door to harder substances like cocaine and crack and etc. That it's a milder drug than the rest is just down-playing the long term effects, look at Ozzy for example or Keith Moon.

So you are telling me that Ozzy is the way he is because he smoked weed? That's crazy talk, or maybe I misread your post...Ozzy did a lot more than just weed!!!

Like alcohol some people can use it in small amounts (like a beer or two a day) with little effect on their day to day lives. Some people can use it in large amounts (like a six pack over the weekend) with little effect and some people can use it in copious amounts (like a binge) with little effects. But that's some people. In my experience I've seen marijuana make effective hard-working people into lazy, shiftless ones because of the numbing effects it has.

Like I posted before, it is up to the person on how they use the drug. If they choose to smoke the dope all the time and become lazy, then it is because they, as a person chose to. Booze has the same "numbing effects", whether we like to admit it or not. On a lighter note, I must drink more than I thought! Esspecially if a six pack over the weekend is heavy! LOL, man Ryan you gotta slow down, your liver is scraming at you, "For the love of God STOP!!!". :drinkbeer

It's a drug, it's a psychotrophic drug and it has it's dangers like every other drug out there, either long or short term.

Yes, although the dangers are much less than many others, including Alcohol.

When I was using and abusing that was my DOC (drug of choice) because of the mellowing effects it had on an otherwise stressful day at work. Problem is that it's addicting (just like every other drug...including alcohol) and most of my money by week's end was spent on it than the necessities, you know, rent, food, and stuff like that.

I personally disagree, people can say that weed is addictive until they are blue in the face but I refuse to believe that. Never have I heard anyone say that they actually have a physical dependancy for weed to operate properly. NEVER! Nor experienced that(believe me if anyone should had been addicted, it should had been this guy)
They may say "boy I could use a joint" or "I could go for a hoot."

While not everyone "loses it" because they smoke the stuff... the numbers are too small to effectively convince law-makers that it's okay enough to legalize it. Prohibition was recended because the law-makers were tired of breaking their own law, that and the violence and other problems making alcohol illegal.
Like Ping said... it just opens Pandora's box if this "Ok drug" gets legal.
You'll see other people saying hey, lets make Crack legal too so guys won't be out there breaking into people's houses and jacking cars to get their drug. Then cocaine then heroin then ... the list goes on.

Actually on a different note, in Vancouver, the Canadian Government passed out free "safe heroine fixes" controled by nursses in hopes to lower cime rates.

As a recovering addict of 15 years, I speak from experience that legalizing Marijuana .... is... not... a... good... idea!

my two bits on it.

I absolutly respect your opinion, which you are totally entitled to.

Although I personally disagree. No big deal man, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream. No hard feelings?

Cheers,

Ryan