The legalities

[granfire]

Well, every time something like this creeps up, I note that I am living here too long...

OK, on my forum we had the discussion a few weeks back on volunteers that help the center run. We are talking assisting the actual class, in the structure presented a necessity ojnce the classes get a big bigger.

As it was, the discussion revolved around money: Those who assist are now asked to pay a fee for certification, 30 smackers a year. Usually (almost always) these people are not compensated for their time, plus they have a number of requirements to fulfill to continue their paths, almost all cost extra.

now, the legal part:
It is illegal to pay further training for your unpaid help - so I was told, it's supposed to be tricky, ok, I take their word for it.

But now, since it is MA, stuff happens, even when the style is increasingly growing soft, I started to wonder: What happens should one of your unpaid volunteers suffer an injury that keeps them out of work and/or required medical attention?

Considering the organization, liability release and all that jazz, I would not the least bit surprised to see the 'nener nener' response.

How do you guys handle that, does insurance cover these things, or is some sort of workman's comp available?

 

[dancingalone]

How do you guys handle that, does insurance cover these things, or is some sort of workman's comp available?

Worker's compensation only covers injuries suffered on the job. Employers pay into a fund for this. It's possible although doubtful that a tkd dojang might be a participant in worker's compensation. Generally, employers only join the coverage because they are required to do so by virtue of having a certain number of compensated employees.

I have a liability insurance policy that covers financial damages from lawsuits. It would not cover lost wages for my students if they became injured in an activity in my dojo. It's only protects me if the injured person sued me, and then only if I was not negligent and only up to a certain dollar amount.

Methinks the people in your situation are flying by the seat of their pants and they likely have nothing that would take care of their volunteers other than a similar liability policy like mine.

 

[granfire]

I am sure there is a basic liability insurance in place, they'd be crazy not to.

But between the waver you sign, plus a myriad of other things you put your John Hancock on over the years (not to mention a rapidly changing organization) I would not bet the house on it.

So basically, you (generic) as volunteer take your luck into both hands spending time at another person's small business in an inherit dangerous situation?

Unless the certification fee covers some sort of that (fat chance)...but the introduction of that little gem made me wonder.

 

[dancingalone]

I guess I have a hard time understanding what 'volunteering' includes. I have a couple of black belts who teach class for me from time to time when I am ill or on vacation. They are unpaid, other than a tacit understanding that I will make it up to them with extra training at some later point. If they got injured while teaching class, I similarly have no remedy for them for lost wages, but it's no different than any regular student attending class with me.

Not sure what the answer is. Sounds like I am pretty much in the same boat as the people you are talking about, other than I run my private karate dojo as a nonprofit organization with low fees.

In my other teaching situation, we're based out of a church and we charge no fees other than a liability insurance premium. Like $20 a year. So pretty much the same deal.

 

[RSweet]

I'd suggest registering the school with AAU and making sure these people are registered. Or register with USAT and have at least 35 students including these instructors registered w/same. This way if during a regular class of a registered school you are covered. it is only a secondary policy - AAU is $100 deductible and USAT is $1000 deductible. However, if said volunteer has no health insurance, it covers them after the deductible. If you belong to both, they split the costs 50/50. Never assume that a school has a liability policy. Even though it makes sense, I know too many instructors who don't because their attitude is that if someone sues them, they have nothing to lose anyway.

 

[granfire]

I guess I have a hard time understanding what 'volunteering' includes. I have a couple of black belts who teach class for me from time to time when I am ill or on vacation. They are unpaid, other than a tacit understanding that I will make it up to them with extra training at some later point. If they got injured while teaching class, I similarly have no remedy for them for lost wages, but it's no different than any regular student attending class with me.

Not sure what the answer is. Sounds like I am pretty much in the same boat as the people you are talking about, other than I run my private karate dojo as a nonprofit organization with low fees.

In my other teaching situation, we're based out of a church and we charge no fees other than a liability insurance premium. Like $20 a year. So pretty much the same deal.

Well, i think I need to explain the business model of the franchise:

Started out as 'and alliance of indipendent schools'.
You had to be a certified instructor to open a school: be a BB and have spend at least a year assisting in class, keep a log about time (250 classes, plus lesson planners, plus seminars)
You paid a fee to test to enter this apprenticeship (and a pretty good one), you paid for the seminars (plus travel, of course) and you had to keep paying on your training.

The you tested (for a fee) to become certified.
Then they started charging every year for renewal (I was told it was lifelong after the first 4 years, so much for the length of a life)

Now it has turned into that you have to pay an additional 30 per year to be certified apprentice...

There are really no perks, you pay training, no cut in equipment, nothing.
You are there on your time, rank tests you are required to show, again no perks, tournaments you are also required to show up and judge. The only perk there is that you (in the past, might change yet) you did not have to pay entry fee. The savings here are negligable: the schedule was cut from 5 or 6 tourneys to 3.


I guess my question stems from a growing dis trust in the firm.

 

[dancingalone]

Yeah, I never understood that model.

I don't charge my black belts anything at all and they always get more advanced training as they become ready for it. Your black belts are your assets. They are what the beginners look at when they decide to train with you or not. The better your high ranks are, the more attractive you are as a potential school, and in my case, I want to grow as many QUALITY black belts as I can, since they are a reflection of myself and my teacher.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sounds to me like some people are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of.

Sounds to me like there is also a lot of open shots for potential liability, that a signed waiver may be powerless to stop, and rightfully so if the people are being taken advantage of anyway.

Sounds to me like someone needs to seriously revamp their business model.

If this is truly a business, and someone is trying to make money from it, they need to identify who is an employee, and pay them a fair wage and have coverage for workers comp. Quit playing games and looking for slimy backroad ways around it.

There MAY be some wiggle room for the senior student to occasionally run class if the employee/paid instructor needs to be away. But this should be the exception. That senior student who is not an employee and is not paid for his teaching efforts, should not suddenly be saddled with ongoing teaching obligations.

There MAY be some wiggle room to say that part of a student's training includes learning to teach, and therefor spending SOME time teaching as part of that process. But again, turning that student into a defacto employee without pay is immoral, unethical, and illegal.

I say there MAY be some room for these issues, because I am not an expert on the law, but these are red flags to me.

Charging people a fee for the "privilege" of teaching others, and not paying them for their teaching efforts, is wrong, unethical, immoral, and quite probably illegal.

if it's a business, it needs to be treated like a business, or else some people might get spanked in ways they don't expect.

 

[granfire]

Sounds to me like some people are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of.

Sounds to me like there is also a lot of open shots for potential liability, that a signed waiver may be powerless to stop, and rightfully so if the people are being taken advantage of anyway.

Sounds to me like someone needs to seriously revamp their business model.

If this is truly a business, and someone is trying to make money from it, they need to identify who is an employee, and pay them a fair wage and have coverage for workers comp. Quit playing games and looking for slimy backroad ways around it.

There MAY be some wiggle room for the senior student to occasionally run class if the employee/paid instructor needs to be away. But this should be the exception. That senior student who is not an employee and is not paid for his teaching efforts, should not suddenly be saddled with ongoing teaching obligations.

There MAY be some wiggle room to say that part of a student's training includes learning to teach, and therefor spending SOME time teaching as part of that process. But again, turning that student into a defacto employee without pay is immoral, unethical, and illegal.

I say there MAY be some room for these issues, because I am not an expert on the law, but these are red flags to me.

Charging people a fee for the "privilege" of teaching others, and not paying them for their teaching efforts, is wrong, unethical, immoral, and quite probably illegal.

if it's a business, it needs to be treated like a business, or else some people might get spanked in ways they don't expect.

You pretty much summed up what I thought about that.

There has been a lot of change in the last coupe of years, and I have not seen it do any good. But that might just be the kicker.

Fact is, if you got a small school, you can wing it without, but once you start growing you need the help (because of the structure)

But then the model does not cater to BBs, it caters to kids, that ar there a year or untill the get to BB, then they usually quit anyhow, so quality is an after thought.

(I am seriously staring to like the hot cocoa machine in the lobby, really, I do!)

 

[jks9199]

Worker's compensation only covers injuries suffered on the job. Employers pay into a fund for this. It's possible although doubtful that a tkd dojang might be a participant in worker's compensation. Generally, employers only join the coverage because they are required to do so by virtue of having a certain number of compensated employees.

I have a liability insurance policy that covers financial damages from lawsuits. It would not cover lost wages for my students if they became injured in an activity in my dojo. It's only protects me if the injured person sued me, and then only if I was not negligent and only up to a certain dollar amount.

Methinks the people in your situation are flying by the seat of their pants and they likely have nothing that would take care of their volunteers other than a similar liability policy like mine.

Most almost certainly are required by law to participate in workman's comp programs. However, the actual number of reported, claimed, or covered EMPLOYEES is often quite small -- and may not include everyone teaching classes.

This is one of the areas that I suspect a lot of martial arts schools, of whatever size, trip into danger with, especially as they take on more and more trappings of a business. Black belts are often expected to teach classes, and many even still pay for the opportunity! I know of at least one program that if you sign up and sign the contract for their "instructor development program", you're suddenly teaching classes. I guess it's supposed to be on-the-job training...

 

[Earl Weiss]

now, the legal part:
It is illegal to pay further training for your unpaid help - so I was told, it's supposed to be tricky, ok, I take their word for it.

But now, since it is MA, stuff happens, even when the style is increasingly growing soft, I started to wonder: What happens should one of your unpaid volunteers suffer an injury that keeps them out of work and/or required medical attention?

Considering the organization, liability release and all that jazz, I would not the least bit surprised to see the 'nener nener' response.

How do you guys handle that, does insurance cover these things, or is some sort of workman's comp available?

1. It is not illegal to cover the cost of education for someone who asists you. Pay it directly. Don't pay the student and have them pay it.
2. If there i an injury, lots of scenarios. If you are negligent you could be liable. Their med insurance should come into ply. If you have liability insurance it may provide secondary med pay. Mine does. You need to check with the agent.
3. If they are no pai they are likely not an employee but I think there were some cases where the govt held they were and were owed wages due to the nature and extent of assigned duties.