The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[JowGaWolf]

His pulling his hand back was not a factor in him landing his hook first. It was his block near his face. Had it not been there her hook would have landed first.

You are looking at the guard when it is in place. I'm looking at the motion the hand makes when it goes from extended punch to guard. Once it's in guard it's no longer pulling hand but chambered. Pulling the hand back makes it possible to effectively punch with the other hand.

It's that pulling motion that I'm referring to. Pulling the hand to high guard is fine as it is one of the the basic: One hand attacks the other guard. Blue never looked as if he hand made it to guard position nether low mid or high. From what I can"t tell if her hand was raising as if she was trying to get it to high guard but it didnt make it or if she was going to leve it lower. She never saw that punch coming. For the position she was in the high guard is the best choice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The 1st image shows his block near his face. Her glove/hook is outside of his block.

The 2nd image shows her hook is already inside his block. His hook has not landed yet. Again had his block not been near his face, her hook would have landed first.

Her glove is not near her face blocking, his is.


His pulling his hand back was not a factor in him landing his hook first. It was his block near his face. Had it not been there her hook would have landed first.


Hesitation may be the wrong word. She could not land her hook, because he blocked his face.. After she threw the cross, she did not put her block up (as taught). She threw her hook with her other hand down. Then, he landed the hook.

Just putting it out there that I look at both hands and not just the rear to see how they are pulling back and if they pull back to a high chamber, mid chamber, or low. I'm also watching to see there rear hand goes because I know that's what you are focusing on. Just didn't want you to think I'm ignoring that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Positions and transitions do not teach over time.

You have to actively build neural pathways.

Just because you do a motion or set of motions that are intended to be a throw a million times in a kata, doesn’t magically mean that it will teach you how to do it and when to do that throw if no one ever tells you it’s a throw. That’s not how learning or muscle memory works.

As you say it works poorly, because it doesn’t actually work.

That’s a gross exaggeration of what I said.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good thing we literally have clarifications from people who were training 100+ years ago on this in several books, so it’s not up to interpretation, or changing definitions via cultural contexts…

Funakoshi in Renten Goshin Karate Jutsu states quite clearly hikite is for pulling and twisting an opponent’s arm to disrupt their posture.

The irony being funakoshi himself largely removed such teachings from his own syllabus in the post war era…

I’m only aware of one reference made to Funakoshi in this regard, and that was him discussing a specific application, which may or may not be the overall definition of the term. My point stands that you are making linguistic arguments based on a translation of a term.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, I didn't. I posted an article and videos that covered the OP issue of "chambering an empty hikite." And, I never argued about what other teachers do. I commented, "Other karate stylists may have a valid argument."

You have claimed several times not to have an opinion, but you staunchly oppose anything that differs from what clearly is your opinion. You posted that quote in support of that position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Pretty much everything you’ve said.

Wow. Great argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Claressa Shields gets knocked down, when she throws a jab, cross, then drops (chambers) her right hand.

You post that as if anyone has claimed it can’t happen.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@marvin8
I just got home and found a better quality video of it. Here's what I can see now:

• The glove caused interference but it was light. He actually opened up a little when he threw his punch which is the glove got inside and why I didn't see the impact that I was expecting to see on the glove. At first I thought her gloved knocked his glove back but after looking at it about 10 times. His glove naturally moved back a he rotated his waist.

I also so something else. Blue's first punch landed on the chin but seemed to not have the power to do anything which makes me think that it just didn't have the range, it only caused a polite nod and didn't give the impact that one would think that speed would give.

I had to take a look at other videos to figure the other stuff out.

• It looks like her rear guard stops in the middle. Left hook left crosses seem to have a lower guard than her jabs.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You post that as if anyone has claimed it can’t happen.

He's trying to show that if the rear guard is not high then you can get knocked out. I don't disagree with this, but I don't say this because it gives the assumption that if your rear guard is high then you won't get knocked out or hurt which isn't true. Not every punch comes in on the rear guard side. If I know someone is going to glue their glove to the side of the head then I know there are other places that are open.

This picture shows her rear hand in high guard. She originally did a left jab and I did a pull hand to interfere with her ability to bring her jabbing hand back into chamber. She isn't in low chamber in this picture she's actually trying to recover after I pull her hand downward. My rear guard is not actually guarding it's an active hand and I'm actually reaching out for that reverse punch while looping into a hook. My rear hand will pull back to chamber so that It's not in the way of the hook.

This is a the result of a "double pull hand" In Jow Ga we don't call them pull hand because we aren't actually grabbing the hand. It's faster to scoop the hand so alot of what you see me doing are open hand no grab scooping techniques. He tried to hit me with a 1-2 combo. I pull his left jab jab, then did the same to his reverse punch. That action interrupted his ability to chamber or return to guard. My right arm is sending a hook.

Here's one where my sparring partner has a high guard. This punch lands right up the middle and I actually had to try to miss at the last second because of the force that was coming in. But his rear hand is in high guard, but it wont' save him from this thrust punch from landing.

 

[marvin8]

He's trying to show that if the rear guard is not high then you can get knocked out. I don't disagree with this,

Yes. Again, the OP's, videos' and article's argument is "Do not chamber an empty hikite to the waist." Basically, there are only two choices (arguments). When punching, you are open to counters. It is more likely you get hurt or knocked down and have slower offense by chambering your other hand...

1. to your waist.
2. near your chin.

but I don't say this because it gives the assumption that if your rear guard is high then you won't get knocked out or hurt which isn't true.

No. They say you have less of a chance of getting hurt or knocked out and faster offense, than if you chamber your other hand to your waist.

Again, It's important to know the guiding principles. However, it's also important to know when you can break them.

A Jow Ga guy demos to "cock" your empty hand near your chin with elbows being good defense and throws a hook...

 

[JowGaWolf]

No. They say you have less of a chance of getting hurt or knocked out and faster offense, than if you chamber your other hand to your waist.

They only have less of a chance of getting hit from that angle, and if they are hit from that angle they have a better chance to defend that angle. . Less chance of getting hurt or knocked out is the problem that I have because there are other places on the face to hit. There are other places on the body the body to strike while that rear hand is in guard position. Any proof of your statement that you put forth will only apply to someone who is trying to target that one area. Because of the way that I fight, I never target the rear hand area and I'm still able to land things that hurt and that can knock people out. The only time I deal with the rear hand of my opponent is when it tries to come out and get involved..

Rear guard is up. = Less likely you'll get hit from that angle. It doesn't mean you are less likely to get hurt.. It doesn't mean you are less likely to get KO.

Will it make it less likely that you'll get attacked from that angle? Yes
Will it make it easier to defend if your head if you get attacked from that angle? Yes
Will it make you less likely to Hurt? No
Will it make you less likely to get KO? no.
If your rear hand is chambered will it make it more likely to get hit from that angle? Yes
If your rear hand is chambered will it make it more likely to get hurt from that angle? Yes
If your rear hand is chambered will it make your more like to get KO from that angle? Yes
Is there a way to reduce the risks above when cambering low to the waist? Yes.

1. Realize that your opponent will try to hit you from that angle so use it as bait to set up counters against attacks from that side.
2. Don't chamber to the hip unless there is a purpose and plan in which a successful strike can be used.
3. Be cautious of distance. The further away, the more options your opponent will have have to to strike that area
4. Use footwork to reposition the opening created by having hands low. If you know attacks will come the right then move left., while attacking. Force your opponent to reacquire the target and strike as he's doing it.
5. Do not chamber the fist by the hip for longer than what is needed to set up your opponent.
6. Understand that there is a right time to chamber the fist by the hip and a wrong time to chamber the fist by the hip.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A Jow Ga guy demos to "cock" your empty hand near your chin with elbows being good defense and throws a hook...

I've seen him spar but I've never seen him use that technique. So I'm going to speak from my experience of using that technique. so you can understand the limits of that demo.

1. Those punches are only directed to the body
2. Those punches are only straight punches. Over hand punches will eat you up trying to do that.
3. "I don't know what punch is coming" You better know. Get the punch wrong and it's light out. This is not a "for use with any punch" technique.
4. Have him to do a straight punch to the face and that technique will fail
5. The faster the person pulls his hand back, the more problematic that technique becomes.. It sets you up to be hit with a mean 1-2 combo.

This is him doing exactly what you have been saying. The other guy in white is doing what I just state. Makes you less likely to be attacked from that side but iit doesn't stop you from getting hurt. The interesting part is that the guy in the white actually has his fist by his hip.

I'm not even putting him down because I've been hit the same way before with my rear guard up

Rear Guard high.. Smashed in the front of the face with a straight pu

A few seconds later Rear guard high smashed in the front of the face.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. Again, the OP's, videos' and article's argument is "Do not chamber an empty hikite to the waist." Basically, there are only two choices (arguments). When punching, you are open to counters. It is more likely you get hurt or knocked down and have slower offense by chambering your other hand...

1. to your waist.
2. near your chin.

There are far more than two positions (arguments) that can be taken. Fighting skill isn't this binary. To illustrate this, here's 3 options, and it should be clear there are others if you are more specific about the nuance:

1. Always chamber low.
2. Never chamber low.
3. Chamber low sometimes, dependent upon the situation.
   

No. They say you have less of a chance of getting hurt or knocked out and faster offense, than if you chamber your other hand to your waist.

Again, It's important to know the guiding principles. However, it's also important to know when you can break them.

A Jow Ga guy demos to "cock" your empty hand near your chin with elbows being good defense and throws a hook...

You say "no" as if that contradicts his statement. He didn't say "they say". He said "it implies".

While I don't think agreeing that you're more exposed (so more likely to get punched out) with that low guard necessarily implies this, I agree with his sentiment that you'd take it that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a more accurate use of the technique from that. Jow Ga demo that you posted. This is one is informed of the opening caused by the hand being low. If you are going to use examples of Jow Ga applications then use some from this school.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are far more than two positions (arguments) that can be taken. Fighting skill isn't this binary. To illustrate this, here's 3 options, and it should be clear there are others if you are more specific about the nuance:

1. Always chamber low.
2. Never chamber low.
3. Chamber low sometimes, dependent upon the situation.

You say "no" as if that contradicts his statement. He didn't say "they say". He said "it implies".

While I don't think agreeing that you're more exposed (so more likely to get punched out) with that low guard necessarily implies this, I agree with his sentiment that you'd take it that way.

Having a low guard simply means that your opponent will try to attack where he believes the guard is weak. It increases attacks to that area but it doesn't necessary mean you will get hurt more. Advance fighters will lower their guard to bait people to go for that area. This is actually an advantage to the person with the lower guard because now he has a better idea of what attack will come next and where. But again this is on an advance level. The stuff that the guys below do, isn't beginner level stuff.

The amazing thing is that he's not the exception.

It didn't matter if the opponents rear guard was up or not. Roy was bringing the pain. He also threw punches from the hip and chambered at the hip as well.

Another figther

 

[marvin8]

FightingKomodo72

They only have less of a chance of getting hit from that angle, and if they are hit from that angle they have a better chance to defend that angle. . Less chance of getting hurt or knocked out is the problem that I have because there are other places on the face to hit. There are other places on the body the body to strike while that rear hand is in guard position. Any proof of your statement that you put forth will only apply to someone who is trying to target that one area. Because of the way that I fight, I never target the rear hand area and I'm still able to land things that hurt and that can knock people out. The only time I deal with the rear hand of my opponent is when it tries to come out and get involved..

(This is a more valid argument, because it's arguing a closer view of their position.)

There is less chance of getting hurt or knocked out by chambering your empty hand near your chin.

JGW: No. Because, there are other places on the face and body to strike.

OP, Machidas, Iain, Hackleman, article, Atlas, Jow Ga guy: Yes. Because, your hand and arm are in a position to block and have less distance to travel than from the empty hand chambered at your waist.

"...Since from the beginning we teach that put the hand close to the chin. Because here you have two things. You can protect yourself quickly. Also if you need to apply the follow strike technique like the 1-2, it takes so much time [when chambering the hand to the waist]. When you create the habit put the hand to the hip, it’s very difficult. In the fight, you want to put your hand here [close to the chin]."

https://imgur.com/SBMfknf

 

[marvin8]

@marvin8
I just got home and found a better quality video of it. Here's what I can see now:

• The glove caused interference but it was light. He actually opened up a little when he threw his punch which is the glove got inside and why I didn't see the impact that I was expecting to see on the glove. At first I thought her gloved knocked his glove back but after looking at it about 10 times. His glove naturally moved back a he rotated his waist.
  
  I also so something else. Blue's first punch landed on the chin but seemed to not have the power to do anything which makes me think that it just didn't have the range, it only caused a polite nod and didn't give the impact that one would think that speed would give.

When throwing the hook, they are both trying to shift their weight to the back right foot to get more power. Her right foot is floating, his right foot is more planted. His rotating and shifting his weight to the back foot causes his head to move (simultaneous attack and defend) helping to defend against her punch.

I had to take a look at other videos to figure the other stuff out.

• It looks like her rear guard stops in the middle.

Again his chambering his hand near his chin with elbow blocking his body, caused her to change positions in order to go around his block and hit his face. Although she was there first, there was not enough time to complete her hook with any power.

Again, it was his chambering of his hand near the chin that gave him the ability to defend and deliver the faster, more powerful hook. His block controls the space, centerline and allows him to deliver the hook. He had better fundamentals (e.g., hand chambered at the chin) than her at that moment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a more valid argument, because it's arguing a closer view of their position.

I've been saying those statements that I posted page #1 of this thread.

 

[GojuTommy]

I’m only aware of one reference made to Funakoshi in this regard, and that was him discussing a specific application, which may or may not be the overall definition of the term. My point stands that you are making linguistic arguments based on a translation of a term.

You can lead a horse to water…

 

[GojuTommy]

That’s a gross exaggeration of what I said.

It’s what you said, no exaggeration.