The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[JowGaWolf]

Maybe this is the origin of the palm up position on the hip most styles end the returning hand with, the result of the twisting action?

It most likely has multiple benefits for being palms up structurally beyond just pulling. I don't know of any martial art where one position only had one benefit and one application of the movement.

Body mechanics probably plays a big role in palms up. We simply get better usage from a lot of things with palm up. Do a high deep chamber and punch. Try it with the palm up chamber and then again with palm down chamber from the same position. You should be able to feel the difference in the two right away. Try doing an upper cut with palm down. vs palm up.'

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah grabbing and pulling is what it is, then you’ve got people like that weird Kung fu guy who will argue until they’re blue in the face that hikite is something else, and they justify it by using claims that are unverified pseudoscience at best.

You do realize Choki Motobu also trained with the waist at the hip. The martial art that he train predates him. He used what worked for him and taught what he felt was most important which is what teachers who have fighting experience with the techniques do anyway. There are things that are in Jow Ga that I don't teach. simply because I don't like it.

Kung fu predates Karate, so look out side the box for early meaning or early function. According to what I've been able to find Choki Motobu original title for his book was "Chinese Hands"

 

[marvin8]

Claressa Shields gets knocked down, when she throws a jab, cross, then drops (chambers) her right hand.

 

[marvin8]

Hey, just to put a finer point on this, straw man around here is usually something along the lines of, 'You're saying X. And X is wrong because Y.' Where X is a distorted (generally oversimplified or intentionally misleading) version of what the other person is saying. Is less about a third party and more about the creation of a third argument or position, usually one that is less nuanced and more easily rebutted.

That said, not everyone who does this is self-aware. Personally, I think it should be required that everyone take a basic logic class and spend at least a few months on a debate team before graduating high school. At least then we'd know folks should know better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Claressa Shields gets knocked down, when she throws a jab, cross, then drops (chambers) her right hand.

Here's what I'm seeing. 2 people doing the same technique. Both punches enter past the guard, which in this case the guard didn't help anyone. The screenshot below is at the moment black pants is about to land the punch. Blue pants punch also enters but is not a close. This is a race between who can land this punch first. I don't know if black pants had a longer reach or was faster but he definitely wins that race. Anything at this point will sap the punch out of the other..

The punch lands causing her punch trajectory to change. His punch lands on the front of the face which is the same location that blue was aiming for.

Here's more of the trajectory of the punch..

This is screen shot of what happened right after the punch which really points to what I was saying earlier. The sooner you can pull your hand back the sooner you can send the punch out. They threw the same combo so the first punch is the same but he is faster with pulling that punching arm back so he's ready to send the other other punch. Blue still has her punching arm extended. That's the arm that needs to be quickly chambered.

 

[Steve]

An excellent overview from someone I believe folks around here respect. I liked every segment. It was all exactly right, and @JowGaWolf, I know you hate logic, but he explains the fallacies in plain language so you might still get it. Worth a look.

The appeal to incredulity is a current and relevant one, particularly his summary using the example of kata. Not everyone who disagrees doesn't understand, and not everyone who understands has to agree. Sometimes, we just simply disagree on a topic, and a lot of the conflict around here would vanish if folks just internalized that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

An excellent overview from someone I believe folks around here respect. I liked every segment. It was all exactly right, and @JowGaWolf, I know you hate logic, but he explains the fallacies in plain language so you might still get it. Worth a look.

I heard it and understood it and my take away was that marvin8 was doing those things and not me. Soooo there's logic for you.

This is why I rather show things working and not working. Instead of getting into that logic, because logic doesn't take into consideration that something works or not.

There would still be conflict in this group regardless of if I comment or not. There was conflict before I came to MartialTalk and there will be conflict after I live. I'm married so that logic of just don't say anething and there won't be anymore conflict isn't a reality. Some people here like to stir the pot just so they can get a reaction. I sit back and watch the little digs and decide if I'll give them what they are looking for or do I just ignore them. Either way it's up to me to decide what I want to do.

You of all people should know this about me by now. My warning label says, "Don't get him started"

 

[Steve]

I heard it and understood it and my take away was that marvin8 was doing those things in not me. Soon there's logic for you.

Did you watch the video? It's only fifteen minutes long.

 

[marvin8]

Here's what I'm seeing. 2 people doing the same technique. Both punches enter past the guard, which in this case the guard didn't help anyone.

Both are throwing the same combination (jab, cross and hook). Both are simultaneously slipping off the centerline and throwing the cross, simultaneous attack and defense (sil lin di da).

The screenshot below is at the moment black pants is about to land the punch. Blue pants punch also enters but is not a close. This is a race between who can land this punch first. I don't know if black pants had a longer reach or was faster but he definitely wins that race. Anything at this point will sap the punch out of the other..

I'm seeing (frames) Black pants' hand is chambered near the face. Blue pants' hand is not. Black pants' block causes Blue pants' hook to move inside the block, which took more time. Had Black pants' block not been there, I believe Blue pants' hook may have landed first. I believe she is actually faster in her movement. Both her cross and hook seem to be first.

View attachment 30477

The punch lands causing her punch trajectory to change. His punch lands on the front of the face which is the same location that blue was aiming for.

His hook lands first because he has a clear path to her face. Since, her hand is down. It's his block near his face that causes her hook to avoid it and move to the inside.

This is screen shot of what happened right after the punch which really points to what I was saying earlier. The sooner you can pull your hand back the sooner you can send the punch out. They threw the same combo so the first punch is the same but he is faster with pulling that punching arm back so he's ready to send the other other punch. Blue still has her punching arm extended. That's the arm that needs to be quickly chambered.

Her head is past her knee when throwing the cross. His alignment (3 harmonies) is better than hers. So, he has less distance to travel. However, she is faster. It's his chambered block near the face that gave her hesitation and diversion of her hook that caused his hook to land first, not pulling back of the hand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not everyone who disagrees doesn't understand, and not everyone who understands has to agree. Sometimes, we just simply disagree on a topic, and a lot of the conflict around here would vanish if folks just internalized that.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. For me it's much simpler I will say what I want and when I want and for as long as I want to. Even if no one else says anything about pulling hand I will still have something say about until I decide not say anything about it.

Did you watch the video? It's only fifteen minutes long.

Yep. I did. I can watch it for a 2nd tome if you think it will yield the results you hope for. Lol

 

[Steve]

I have no problem with people disagreeing. For me it's much simpler I will say what I want and when I want and for as long as I want to. Even if no one else says anything about pulling hand I will still have something say about until I decide not say anything about it.

That's good. That's not the logic part, but it's healthy and constructive. Ideally, you'll have the logical foundation to be able to evaluate evidence and all of that, too.

I have no

Yep. I did. I can watch it for a 2nd tome if you think it will yield the results you hope for. Lol

Only you know if you learned anything at this point. I hope so, but you seem determined not to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Had Black pants' block not been there, I believe Blue pants' hook may have landed first. I believe she is actually faster in her movement. Both her cross and hook seem to be first.

I initially thought that too and I wondered why it didn't since it appears that the second punch was well on its way to the target. I'm not at my computer now so I can't run the frames back in Camtasia. But if I remember correctly I didn't see any impact reaction on the glove. Which makes me think the glove didn't reach it's destination.

After I didn’t see that I started to think that he beat her to the second punch. So I went frame by frame to see who was the fastest. She lands the first punch but he was faster at pulling his punching hand back. Being split second faster can be the difference between landing a punch or eating one. Especially if the same combo is being thrown

I wish the blur wasn't so bad so I could actually see the gray glove. That combo looks like the one that double KOs come from.

The only things that I could think of that would allow him to land the punch on face or high guard in this video

1. Faster punch
2. Longer arm
4. A combination of both

I also don't know if she was raising her guard late or not raising it at all. I was hoping there was a different camera angle but I couldn't find one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's good. That's not the logic part, but it's healthy and constructive. Ideally, you'll have the logical foundation to be able to evaluate evidence and all of that, too.



Only you know if you learned anything at this point. I hope so, but you seem determined not to.

What I learn may not be what you want me to get. That's why I said it the way I did. What do you expect me to learn from it?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not everyone who disagrees doesn't understand, and not everyone who understands has to agree. Sometimes, we just simply disagree on a topic, and a lot of the conflict around here would vanish if folks just internalized that.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. For me it's much simpler I will say what I want and when I want and for as long as I want to. Even if no one else says anything about pulling hand I will still have something say about until I decide not say anything about it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I loved watching that video.

Tommy Hearns showed me the various jabs he used and how he used some of them to hide what was coming.

He showed me them in the dining room of the Ponchatrain Hotel in Detroit while we were having dinner. Nobody found it unusual, Tommy was from around there.

Tommy Hearns is one of the nicest, mellowest people I’ve ever met in the Arts.

Wow you really have met everyone. It’s really impressive, I would like to hear more of your story.

 

[Steve]

Hey @JowGaWolf , I’m doing my best to give you grace. But it really seems like you’re determined to be snarky and I just don’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. Learn something or don’t. I just can’t bring myself to give two shits about you one way or the other. I hope your day goes better than mine.

 

[JowGaWolf]

s his chambered block near the face that gave her hesitation and diversion of her hook that caused his hook to land first, not pulling back of the hand.

I can see this as a possibility. I don't understandstad what you mean when you say it's not the pulling back of the hand. How else can he get his arm back into that back. position after the punch if he doesn't pull his hand back?

But I can see the possibility of hesitation of the guard being there. I tell students to not hesitate because their punch still has to beat their opponent's punch. Landing the punch first will disrupt their opponent's punch.

Hesitation within punching range is really risky. I know it's a difficult thing to do but it can't also be trained response. I'll watch it again when I get home. My phone is too small to pick up on something like that

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey @JowGaWolf , I’m doing my best to give you grace. But it really seems like you’re determined to be snarky and I just don’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. Learn something or don’t. I just can’t bring myself to give two shits about you one way or the other. I hope your day goes better than mine.

All I did was ask you what it was that you wanted me to learn. Was it grace?

As for you not giving 2 poops about me. That's fine. You'll still talk to me in the morning. Lol

 

[marvin8]

Had Black pants' block not been there, I believe Blue pants' hook may have landed first. I believe she is actually faster in her movement. Both her cross and hook seem to be first.

I initially thought that too and I wondered why it didn't since it appears that the second punch was well on its way to the target. I'm not at my computer now so I can't run the frames back in Camtasia. But if I remember correctly I didn't see any impact reaction on the glove. Which makes me think the glove didn't reach it's destination.

The 1st image shows his block near his face. Her glove/hook is outside of his block.

The 2nd image shows her hook is already inside his block. His hook has not landed yet. Again had his block not been near his face, her hook would have landed first.

I also don't know if she was raising her guard late or not raising it at all. I was hoping there was a different camera angle but I couldn't find one.

Her glove is not near her face blocking, his is.

I can see this as a possibility. I don't understandstad what you mean when you say it's not the pulling back of the hand. How else can he get his arm back into that back. position after the punch if he doesn't pull his hand back?

His pulling his hand back was not a factor in him landing his hook first. It was his block near his face. Had it not been there her hook would have landed first.

But I can see the possibility of hesitation of the guard being there. I tell students to not hesitate because their punch still has to beat their opponent's punch. Landing the punch first will disrupt their opponent's punch.

Hesitation within punching range is really risky. I know it's a difficult thing to do but it can't also be trained response. I'll watch it again when I get home. My phone is too small to pick up on something like that

Hesitation may be the wrong word. She could not land her hook, because he blocked his face.. After she threw the cross, she did not put her block up (as taught). She threw her hook with her other hand down. Then, he landed the hook.

 

[Buka]

Wow you really have met everyone. It’s really impressive, I would like to hear more of your story.

I have trouble talking about Tommy Hearns. I only spent that evening with him, and that was a long time ago.

Years later I saw him being interviewed and his speech seemed like it was starting to slur a bit. That both breaks my heart and kind of scares me a bit.