The Knife is a Lousy Weapon for SD

[Sukerkin]

A very interesting, if that's the right word, thread, gentlemen.

Around here, we've never had much of an issue with knife fights or indeed gun fights either (tho' the times they are a changin' as the song goes) so it was informative to hear of various members experiences.

From my martial arts training, I concur that the knife is a weapon of stealth and offense rather than defence. You can use it in a defensive situation but it's maximum effect comes from it's strike when it's prescence is unknown.

That has been 'true' throughout history, as precautions against an opponent who may have a knife are even present within my JSA (sadly for the opponent, the response is usually a removal of a hand or head; not generally applicable on the average American street ).

 

[geezer]

I think a knife is better than nothing if you need it, but as others have said the "public opinion" of a knife has a lot of negativity to it.

As an LEO if I was in a justifiable lethal force situation I would much prefer to shoot them than be in the same type of situation and kill them with my knife. WHY? For the most part the public knows cops carry guns and have to shoot people. When is the last time you heard of a cop slashing out the bad guys throat that had just taken his firearm? You know how much bad press there would be and how "cruel and unusual" it was?

I'M not a LEO, but this is exactly my point. Knives are very good for hurting and killing, but not the wisest choice for defense in today's world.

Now as MA Caver pointed out, in some parts of the country everyone carried them. My Granpa, an old Arizona rancher, used to say "A man is never without a knife". When my brother and I went out to the ranch to help out, we always carried a jacknife. But we used them as a tool, not as a weapon. Things are different now. Here in Arizona you'd have an easier time justifying shooting someone than stabbing them. We even have a bill up before our state legislature that, if passed, will allow any adult with a permit to carry a gun on school grounds! As a teacher, I wonder if that would help me keep order in the classroom!?!

 

[MA-Caver]

I'M not a LEO, but this is exactly my point. Knives are very good for hurting and killing, but not the wisest choice for defense in today's world.

Now as MA Caver pointed out, in some parts of the country everyone carried them. My Granpa, an old Arizona rancher, used to say "A man is never without a knife". When my brother and I went out to the ranch to help out, we always carried a jacknife. But we used them as a tool, not as a weapon. Things are different now. Here in Arizona you'd have an easier time justifying shooting someone than stabbing them. We even have a bill up before our state legislature that, if passed, will allow any adult with a permit to carry a gun on school grounds! As a teacher, I wonder if that would help me keep order in the classroom!?!

Only if your students knew about the gun, which in-of-itself is not a very good idea... one of them might find a way to get it from you. Maybe not likely, but why take the chance? Who'd want another opportunistic school shooting on their conscious?

Growing up through school, knives were very very rarely used. You'd be thought less of if you brought a weapon to a school fight, or pulled one in an unexpected fight. It was all fists and feet back then and nobody I knew had any kind of martial training. Even me, I didn't start mine until after I dropped out at 15-16 yrs of age and most of that early was impromptu training, somewhere along the lines of... "hey lemme show this to you..."
But eventually I learned it was better to carry and learn how to use it than to be bare-(empty) hands. The other guys I've known were always armed to one extent or another. Far too many times in street fights I've watched, I've seen how one guy would suddenly start bleeding from a simple punch in the gut that was anything but simple, turned out the other guy had that "hidden blade".
Situations like that you don't worry about legal niceties. You survive the fight and get the hell out of there, if you lost then chances are you're still going to end up in jail as the officer(s) reporting to the scene will check your priors while you're en-route to the hospital. If you live, well that's another scene entirely, if you don't... well it just another statistic.
Point is a knife/weapon greatly increases your survivability rate. Even more so if someone taught you the hows and wherefores on using this or that weapon, be it knife, 2 by fore or whatever.
A lot of you are aware of this as much as I am... the adage applies, even for home defense ... "the more you know..."

 

[Rich Parsons]

In the real world, two guys don't square off and go at it with a knife....if the other guy sees the knife before he's stabbed, you've screwed up.

I have had altercations when I had a knife in my pocket. The only times I as ever able to deploy it, was when I saw the threat way before hand. In the case of some knife encounters I was able to get my blade out but nothing would happen then. They would not engage. Others I was engaged and cut, and they were moving on.

The contest type blade training is mostly to teach sensitivity....it shouldn't be considered a realistic representation of what such a conflict will be like.

Yes, it is sensitivity. It is awareness. It is for when you are surprised you have something to work with.

A good scenario to consider is this.....you walk in to a convenience store.....and some guy walks in with a pistol and demands everyone gets in the back room....you open your knife without him seeing, and as he goes to bump you toward the back room, you push his gun hand off line and stab him in the THROAT! And then USE your knife to cut the tendons in his gun hand, the gun you have a death grip on with your OTHER hand, so he lets go of it! A struggle over the gun itself would be an equal advantage, but now he's BLEEDING OUT, and you're cutting away at the tendons of his gun arm!

Does it guarantee your survival? Nope! But getting herded in to the backroom and shot in the head as often happens in these situations is a guarantee of FAILURE! And a gun trumps empty hand in that situation.

Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action!

Having a plan is good. Practicing the plan is good. Refusing to think about it in the first place can lead to depending upon luck or others.

 

[Fiendlover]

i have to agree completely that a knife is a crappy sd weapon. we were trained in knife take away and i graduated it and if i take the knife away from the opponent then ill just use hand to hand which is just as effective and i dont have to kill the guy in order for him to get the picture. i dont think a knife is very great in sd.

 

[KenpoTex]

When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things:
-How realistic and relevant is their training?
-How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things:
-How realistic and relevant is their training?
-How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.

KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely. Why? Well because a knife is an excellent tool to protect yourself. It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm. Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.

 

[jks9199]

i have to agree completely that a knife is a crappy sd weapon. we were trained in knife take away and i graduated it and if i take the knife away from the opponent then ill just use hand to hand which is just as effective and i dont have to kill the guy in order for him to get the picture. i dont think a knife is very great in sd.

I'm skeptical of your claim. I've seen very few truly effective, truly reliable knife disarms that don't have a pretty good chance of the defender getting cut, too. And the whole "I'll disarm him, then beat him up" idea is silly and unrealistic... and stands a good chance of putting you in jail. If you do succeed in disarming someone, RUN AWAY with the knife. Don't continue to fight. Especially if you plan to drop the knife...

When someone says a knife is "crappy/lousy/ineffective" for self-defense, it makes me curious about two things:
-How realistic and relevant is their training?
-How realistic is their understanding of a criminal assault.

KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely. Why? Well because a knife is an excellent tool to protect yourself. It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm. Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.

I have to agree; a knife CAN be a great tool in self defense. After all, they've survived for quite a few years as a weapon...

 

[Lisa]

If you are trained properly to use it and trained properly in disarming someone else with it, it is a great tool for self defense. Now by "trained properly" I don't mean you go through a few disarm techniques here and there, I mean you constantly use it in your training. It is part of your regular training. Just like a firearm, you need to constantly work on your skills in a variety of situations, not just "qualify" to carry and leave it at that.

A knife is only a poor tool in self defense when it is brought to a gun fight. (said with tongue in cheek, peeps, )

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

You can sever a tendon and make a limb useless or you can sever an artery and bleed him out, knives, by there nature allow for options and a force continuem from scare to damage to maim to kill.

Not saying any of it iseasy or should be.

Knife v empty and knife v knife happen and probably a good deal more than Police reports will show. Much violence is unreported or lost in the shuffle. I have seen enough to train for it, but not live paranoid of it.

Deploying a knife has saved my twice from being in a fight with more than 3 people (an almost certian beating.) sao I am partial to them as a general weapon.

 

[matt.m]

All I will say is one of a Marines best friends is his "K-Bar". I have seen a lot of different knife style fighting. However, I love the structure of the K-Bar. If it were legal in MO. I would carry it. However, I have to settle for my cane.

I know my K-Bar has saved my bacaon on many occasions. My favorite knife hands down. But then again, everything is useful......you just have to train for it.

 

[arnisador]

What's illegal about it? The length?

 

[KenpoTex]

What's illegal about it? The length?

Can't carry a fixed-blade in MO unless you have a CCW

 

[geezer]

KenpoTex and I are watching this thread closely. Why? Well because a knife is an excellent tool to protect yourself. It simply falls only behind a firearm and in close range can sometimes be even better than a firearm. Now the legal issues are a whole different manner but if you use your tool when you are legally able to and justified to do so you should not have a problem.

Yes it's an excellent tool, but it seems more offensive than defensive... hence the whole legal problem. Kenpotex makes some good points too. And when all's said and done, I do believe that the best defense is offense. If it's really a life or death situation, you can't try to be Mother Teresa. Too much compassion and you'll end up a dead saint! I'll wager that the guy who was talking about disarms hasn't worked with people who know how to use a blade well..Then there's the deterrent factor of a large blade too. That's helpful. So maybe there is more defensive value to a knife than I thought...

OK, now for a non-sequitor. If you're attacked by a whacked-out, drugged-up mugger and you do cut 'em up all Sweeney Todd...what about HIV, hepatitis, and other blood-born pathogens?

 

[KenpoTex]

Yes it's an excellent tool, but it seems more offensive than defensive...hence the whole legal problem.
...And when all's said and done, I do believe that the best defense is offense. If it's really a life or death situation, you can't try to be Mother Teresa. Too much compassion and you'll end up a dead saint!

With these two statements, you provided the answer to your own question.

I'll wager that the guy who was talking about disarms hasn't worked with people who know how to use a blade well..

IMO, 99% of the disarms taught in the martial-arts world (any system) will get you badly injured or killed when facing a strong, highly motivated, or "whacked-out" attacker (anyone that doesn't fall into the "lowest common denominator" or "dumbass" category).

Then there's the deterrent factor of a large blade too. That's helpful. So maybe there is more defensive value to a knife than I thought...

while there may very well be a deterrent factor with a blade (as, in fact, there often is with a gun), this is not something that should be planned for or counted on. You should only draw a weapon if you are justified in using it.

OK, now for a non-sequitor. If you're attacked by a whacked-out, drugged-up mugger and you do cut 'em up all Sweeney Todd...what about HIV, hepatitis, and other blood-born pathogens?

you can always go to the hospital and get patched up and doped up afterwards. Do what you have to do to stay alive.

 

[shesulsa]

I keep looking at the OP and I have to say "Lousy Weapon" is really a misnomer and only applicable in the opinion of the poster.

What do you consider a "good" SD weapon? What are the criteria you are using for measure?

If you are looking for something that works well with minimum effort, minimum contact, effective from a distance, then a firearm is clearly your best choice. But to say a knife is a lousy weapon indicates a lack of confidence with a blade and also a lack of willingness to get close, dirty and cut. *That* is pure preference - and perhaps an honest assessment of self.

The blade is not for everyone and can, as has been indicated, be viewed by a jury as exactly that - a willingness to get personal with violent self-defense and can lend a sinister factor to the defendant which would be you should you manage to permanently or seriously maim or kill your would-be attacker. It is not to be taken lightly.

So "lousy" it may be for our original poster ... but an effective and devastating tool it certainly is - and still a preference of mine.

 

[MA-Caver]

I keep looking at the OP and I have to say "Lousy Weapon" is really a misnomer and only applicable in the opinion of the poster.

What do you consider a "good" SD weapon? What are the criteria you are using for measure?

If you are looking for something that works well with minimum effort, minimum contact, effective from a distance, then a firearm is clearly your best choice. But to say a knife is a lousy weapon indicates a lack of confidence with a blade and also a lack of willingness to get close, dirty and cut. *That* is pure preference - and perhaps an honest assessment of self.

The blade is not for everyone and can, as has been indicated, be viewed by a jury as exactly that - a willingness to get personal with violent self-defense and can lend a sinister factor to the defendant which would be you should you manage to permanently or seriously maim or kill your would-be attacker. It is not to be taken lightly.

So "lousy" it may be for our original poster ... but an effective and devastating tool it certainly is - and still a preference of mine.

Heh, I knew there was a reason why I liked you...

 

[matt.m]

Yep, in MO the blade length is illegal. Even though I have a squeaky clean record. Never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc. It would be next to impossible for me to get a writ or license to carry a K-Bar. They would see that I am a former Marine with kills via K-Bar, plus extensive knife training. So I just walk around with my cane and mind my own business.

However, I have sparred with a lot of folks that are supposed to be "Well versed". In knife fighting. We used the rubber knifes of course. To be perfectly blunt, I have not seen anything better than the tactics I used in Haiti, Albania, Tunisia, Israel, Turkey, or Liberia.

But in all fairness, would it be a fair comparrison to have someone who only placed to qualify for nationals in judo randori Karo Paryisian or Mike Swain and expect it to be close?

 

[elder999]

. But to say a knife is a lousy weapon indicates a lack of confidence with a blade and also a lack of willingness to get close, dirty and cut. *That* is pure preference - and perhaps an honest assessment of self.

The blade is not for everyone and can, as has been indicated, be viewed by a jury as exactly that - a willingness to get personal with violent self-defense and can lend a sinister factor to the defendant which would be you should you manage to permanently or seriously maim or kill your would-be attacker. It is not to be taken lightly.

So "lousy" it may be for our original poster ... but an effective and devastating tool it certainly is - and still a preference of mine.

And I'm seldom without one, for a variety of uses-it just makes sense to learn how to use it for self-defense as well.

When I am without one, I still have my Mont Blanc pen, which may have saved my life once, because I used it like a knife.

 

[KenpoTex]

Yep, in MO the blade length is illegal. Even though I have a squeaky clean record. Never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc. It would be next to impossible for me to get a writ or license to carry a K-Bar. They would see that I am a former Marine with kills via K-Bar, plus extensive knife training. So I just walk around with my cane and mind my own business.

okay...I'm curious where in MO law you find anything that would lead you to make the statements you've made in this post (particularly the part I bolded)???

If, as you say, you "have a squeaky clean record and have never been in any type of trouble with the law, etc." you should have no problem obtaining a CCW which covers fixed-blade knives.