The K is on the Way

[SPX]

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying about "sport" karate. I personally don't care for the taptap, ignore the head, touch and break while people debate on if you made contact rulesets. I'm a big fan of the ITF ruleset for amateurs, and go to full contact for pros.

The only org that I'm familiar with that doesn't allow head shots is the ATA, but yeah, I agree that that's annoying. As is tippy tap stuff. I'm not saying sparring has to be full contact, but you should be required to land a solid punch or kick to score.

I am with you on the ITF format, though. I love it. I actually contacted a local ITF school to see if I could participate in their tourneys and that was a no-go. You have to be affiliated with one of their clubs, unfortunately.

I am not totally against stop-point sparring as a whole, though.

This is all stop-point, but I could see training for this kind of sparring leading to some legit SD skills (awesome vid too):

Is it impossible? No. I guess I could get someone flat on their back, clamp their head between my knees and dig my thumbs into their eyes. Of course, that's not a very stable position for me to be in, so it's pretty damned likely that I'm going to fail in my attempt to destroy their eyes.
Is causing pain to the eyes easy? Yes. Is destroying the eyes easy? Not at all.

I'll restate. While it's not impossible to cause permanent injury to the human eye with your bare hands, it is certainly not easy. And in the specific case you chose to describe, I would say it would be pretty damned close to impossible. If I had you in a RNC and you chose to reach back and try to gouge out my eyes, all I'd have to do is move my head.
If not unconcious, the person would need to be pretty much helpless.
So you can, if you choose, split hairs till they bleed, but the fact is that Tez is far more correct than you.

I can think of a number of grappling positions in which your eyes could be very vulnerable if eye gouging were allowed.

I'll just ask you this: Would you participate in a match in which eye gouging was allowed? I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

[SPX]

so you're style bashing basically? You want to see more people 'do' karate but it's actually rubbish..........

And you say that you don't intentionally misunderstand me. I'll give you this, you troll pretty well.

 

[Tez3]

And you say that you don't intentionally misunderstand me. I'll give you this, you troll pretty well.

No I don't troll I just get annoyed when people like you make blanket judgements about karate. How many people would have been on your case if you'd said the same about TKD... 'most TKD classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.'
Why did you think you can say that about karate classes and have no one challenge you on it? You've just said that most karate classes are woefully inadequate, ie they are rubbish. Explain that to the karateka here please, that their classes are bad.

 

[SPX]

No I don't troll I just get annoyed when people like you make blanket judgements about karate. How many people would have been on your case if you'd said the same about TKD... 'most TKD classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.'
Why did you think you can say that about karate classes and have no one challenge you on it? You've just said that most karate classes are woefully inadequate, ie they are rubbish. Explain that to the karateka here please, that their classes are bad.

Okay, I'll give you this one. Maybe my wording was confusing.

What I was saying is that the kid-to-adult ratio in the majority of karate classes is unfortunately out of balance. And most of the adults who ARE in karate classes tend to be black belts, not new students.

kitkatninja said: "I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole."

To which I agreed, saying--or intending to say--that I hope it raises awareness for karate and gets more people training, especially adults.

 

[Tez3]

Okay, I'll give you this one. Maybe my wording was confusing.

What I was saying is that the kid-to-adult ratio in the majority of karate classes is unfortunately out of balance. And most of the adults who ARE in karate classes tend to be black belts, not new students.

kitkatninja said: "I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole."

To which I agreed, saying--or intending to say--that I hope it raises awareness for karate and gets more people training, especially adults.

All the karate and other styles classes I've been in as well as my own the adults class were separate from the childrens and have a wide range of belts. It's not the norm here to have adults and children train together because of child protection issues. All martial arts associations now have child protection policies. It's preferred here that if adults are with children they should be CRB checked (criminal records and sexual offenders listed, instructors and coaches should be anyway), students aren't going to do this so seperate classes for the most part. I know this is difficult for famliies who want to train together but it's the way things are mostly now, even those classes who still have adults and children I think will find they have to separate eventually.
http://www.ukasko.com/childprotection.php

 

[SPX]

From what I have been able to gather, the situation with traditional martial arts in general is different--and better--than it is here in the United States. Arts like Karate and TKD for many, many years (and kind of still) were regarded by a lot of people as not serious fighting disciplines. I can't count the number of times I heard someone say this to me (or some variation of it): "Karate is for women and children. Real men do muay Thai." In the past couple of years I think the situation has improved somewhat and it's not an exaggeration to say that it at least partially has Machida to thank for that.

In the past 3 or so years, though, I have visited a number of TKD and Karate schools, or talked to the instructors and got detailed descriptions of their classes. I can give you the run down on what I found:

ITF TKD school: Kids and adults train together. Class was about 85% kids. Adults were of a variety of belt colors.

ITF TKD school: Didn't visit this one but talked to the instructor on the phone. He said that most of his students were also kids with just a few adults. They all train together.

Shotokan Karate school: Talked to the instructor. Mostly kids with just a few adults. Adults mostly just health-and-fitness minded individuals.

WTF TKD School: Mostly kids, but a decent smattering of adults of various ranks. Everyone trains together. Not too bad, but not great either.

Wado-ryu Karate school: Separate kids and adult classes. Adult classes usually average about 5-8 people. Mostly black belts + one brown belt and one purple belt.

Shotokan Karate class: Very small class. Visited twice. The first time consisted of two instructors and two students (one kid, one adult). Students were both white belts. The second time I visited there were only three people in the class, all black belts.

 

[SPX]

http://www.wkf.net/index.php/dummy-wkf-news/135-ioc-members-visit-the-41st-world-championship.html

IOC visited WKF Championships in France! Hopefully this will get the thread back on track....

Wow, that's actually really interesting! If they're visiting then I would have to think that means they really are serious. . .

 

[Dirty Dog]

I can think of a number of grappling positions in which your eyes could be very vulnerable if eye gouging were allowed.

I'll just ask you this: Would you participate in a match in which eye gouging was allowed? I sure as hell wouldn't.

No. I also wouldn't participate in one that allowed the use of tasers.

 

[SPX]

No. I also wouldn't participate in one that allowed the use of tasers.

Me either.

 

[Gorilla]

It a K is on the way thread! Please!


Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:

 

[SPX]

Well shiznit, let's talk about the K (possibly) being on the way!

You start . . . then I'll go.

 

[Tez3]

It a K is on the way thread! Please!


Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:

There is this dichtomy though in that the OP thinks from his experience that karate is not very good yet he wants it in the Olympics.
I think actually it will hurt karate as it has Judo and TKD as well as some other sports in that it will be altered to make it suitable for television and audiences with short attention spans to be able to watch. As for the IOC watching they go to a good many sports, it's part of the perks of the job to be able to go free to any sporting occasion they want, they've been to the Rugby and Cricket World Cups as well, neither of these is up for being included in the Olympics so I wouldn't get any hopes up.

 

[Gorilla]

There is a short kist of 8 sports to be included in 2012. Karate is at the top of that list. That is why the IOC visited Karate.

As far as TKD in the Olympics many would argue that it is the best thing that happened. The sport is only one aspect of the art. The sport was designed to be unique and they accomplished that goal. Not everyone likes it OK.

Karate being added to the Olympics will do wonders for the sport! The arts will remain the same!

 

[Tez3]

There is a short kist of 8 sports to be included in 2012. Karate is at the top of that list. That is why the IOC visited Karate.

As far as TKD in the Olympics many would argue that it is the best thing that happened. The sport is only one aspect of the art. The sport was designed to be unique and they accomplished that goal. Not everyone likes it OK.

Karate being added to the Olympics will do wonders for the sport! The arts will remain the same!

Karate in the Olympics will be nothing more than kick boxing. Television companies want spectacle so they'll be expecting Van Damme movie type bouts and tha's not going to happen unless the rules are changed and the style changed radically. Karate for most isn't a sport, there is sport karate of course but the majority of karateka aren't into the sport so what you will see if TKD goes out is the TKD people coming back with slight modifications as 'karate'.
The full contact karate kumite isn't going to be acceptable in the Olympics they already have boxing, they will want chest and head guards so again it will end up like TKD.

Supposing karate is chosen who will be the controlling board for 'karate', the Shotokan people, the Wado, the Goju Ryu etc etc? We have organisations calling themselve 'world' authorities but they are for a style not karate as a whole. It's going to be very difficult to get everyone to agree to be in one organisation, the in fighting will not be good for karate.

If karate is to be represented will there be kata comps as well as kumite, if karate is to be shown correctly in order benefit it it should be shown properly. Inclusion in the Olympics has done little for Judo I can't see it being any different for karate.

 

[Sojobo]

Supposing karate is chosen who will be the controlling board for 'karate', the Shotokan people, the Wado, the Goju Ryu etc etc? We have organisations calling themselve 'world' authorities but they are for a style not karate as a whole. It's going to be very difficult to get everyone to agree to be in one organisation, the in fighting will not be good for karate.

The IOC regognise the W.K.F. as the governing body. The WKF in turn only recognise NGB's that are registered with them and athletes would be selected by the NGB's to compete at the Olympics.

If karate is to be represented will there be kata comps as well as kumite, if karate is to be shown correctly in order benefit it it should be shown properly. Inclusion in the Olympics has done little for Judo I can't see it being any different for karate.

As I understand it the WKF bid to include Karate into the Olympics excludes Kata. It will just be Kumite.

Sojobo

 

[Tez3]

The IOC regognise the W.K.F. as the governing body. The WKF in turn only recognise NGB's that are registered with them and athletes would be selected by the NGB's to compete at the Olympics.



As I understand it the WKF bid to include Karate into the Olympics excludes Kata. It will just be Kumite.

Sojobo

Then we will be back to the TKD situation where only members of one organisation will be chosen. Look where that left the UK this Olympics.
Karate will end up as kick boxing which is a shame, far better to just put kick boxing in.

 

[Sojobo]

I'm inclined to agree with you Tez,

For example if, as a British athlete, you wanted to compete in the Olympics your association would have to be a member of the BKF (British Karate Federation).

http://www.britishkaratefederation.co.uk/

Sojobo

 

[SPX]

There is this dichtomy though in that the OP thinks from his experience that karate is not very good yet he wants it in the Olympics.

Hey Tez, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. . .

Would you be my best friend? Because I think we have a really strong connection, you know. . .

 

[Tez3]

Hey Tez, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. . .

Would you be my best friend? Because I think we have a really strong connection, you know. . .

You'd have to come and visit me in the asylum though and I'm only allowed one friend a month in. My fault, I asked if I could have more friends visit as the last ones were delicious........

 

[SPX]

You'd have to come and visit me in the asylum though and I'm only allowed one friend a month in. My fault, I asked if I could have more friends visit as the last ones were delicious........

Hmm, I see. Well maybe we'll just stick to the forum. . .