The K is on the Way

[Gorilla]

This is being organized by the WKF....karate is by and large considered the front runner for inclusion in 2020...Las Vegas odds makers have given it the number one slot...do a little research on the internet and you will see!

As for TKD it was huge hit in London packed venues and exciting fights....TKD is not leaving the Olympics! It is a cheap sport that smaller countries can participate like Tez3 said....Afghanistan and Gambon won medals!

I have kids on the JR karate National Team (NKF) and the AAU SR National Team for TKD...I think that we have pretty good shot at seeing both in the Olympics in 2020...I was at the PKF JR Championships in Cancun in August for Karate officials there were pretty optimistic that Karate would be added in 2020. After the 2012 Olympics success TKD is going to stay

 

[SPX]

Ah the well worn eye gouging cliche, usually found when criticising MMA. This comment has actually nothing to do with anything. It's really hard to gouge someone eyes out when they are fighting* so it's probably not a technique worth practising anyway, poke the eyes by all means but the time you take trying to get the eyeball out is time you don't have when defending yourself. It's a martial arts cliche just like the one about hitting the nose with an upward strike kills the attacker when the 'bone' drives into the brain.

My point is that "traditional, self-defense oriented" karate is FULL of watered down, unrealistic training. And it's full of guys practicing their deadly techniques in choreographed step-sparring. Not that I'm hating. As I said before, you CAN'T gouge someone's eyes out during practice, just as you CAN'T trap their arm and break it or punch them in the throat, etc. That would be chaos.

But it's just funny how so many martial artists like to put down sport versions of their art, calling it unrealistic, saying it's not good for self-defense, when their own SD training is wrapped up in some of the most unrealistic training methods available.

And when--if--they actually do spar and really hit each other? It usually looks a lot like kickboxing, the same kind of free sparring that you can find in "sport" schools all over the world.

Karate watered down, well that's a different debate but I can see that any sport chosen for the Olympics gets changed. As for TKD I wouldn't consider the countries that actually practice the sport at Olympic standard renegades! It's a relatively cheap sport for poorer countries to take part in unlike gymnastics, swimming, the equestion events, sailing etc and is encouraged by the IOC for this reason. I doubt they are bothered by one competitor kicking a ref either, he was disciplined for it so that's the end of it as far as the IOC is concerned.

I'm just passing on what I've heard from other people, on the TKD forum here in fact. And the fact that the IOC is considering removing TKD is well-enough documented elsewhere.

*http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Locked-gouging-eyes-girlfriend/story-16062654-detail/story.html

His karate was too strong.

 

[Tez3]

My point is that "traditional, self-defense oriented" karate is FULL of watered down, unrealistic training. And it's full of guys practicing their deadly techniques in choreographed step-sparring. Not that I'm hating. As I said before, you CAN'T gouge someone's eyes out during practice, just as you CAN'T trap their arm and break it or punch them in the throat, etc. That would be chaos.

But it's just funny how so many martial artists like to put down sport versions of their art, calling it unrealistic, saying it's not good for self-defense, when their own SD training is wrapped up in some of the most unrealistic training methods available.

And when--if--they actually do spar and really hit each other? It usually looks a lot like kickboxing, the same kind of free sparring that you can find in "sport" schools all over the world.





I'm just passing on what I've heard from other people, on the TKD forum here in fact. And the fact that the IOC is considering removing TKD is well-enough documented elsewhere.





His karate was too strong.[/QUOTE]

That is a very crass statement.


My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO then first which is the point of the link I posted, not for you to make stupid remarks but to show that even against a woman who is defenceless he had to knock her out before he could damage her eyes. All this eye gouge stuff is nonsense.

You are using the wrong word, karate and other styles aren't 'watered down' at all, what happens is that karateka when sparring may pull their strikes ie not go in full contact. This is different from being watered down. Something 'watered down' is something that's been diluted, in this case it would be karate that's not taught properly of only teaching a couple of techniques. Most karateka can go full on if they choose because their style isn't watered down at all.

I haven't seen many TKD people on here say that it's leaving the Olympics and karate taking it's place.

 

[SPX]

Is there a forum somewhere where people criticize other Olympic events like shooting? "Guns are for killing your enemy!"

Hmm, now that's a good point. . .

 

[SPX]

Yeah, I think it's a sport that you need to really know to appreciate as a spectator in many cases. They are trying to address that, and I think it's cool that they aren't afraid to tinker with things and try to continue to develop the game. And it is fun to do, though if you end up across from someone out of your league, you will gain a newfound respect for what a good Taekwondo player can do.

I've spent various amounts of time in TKD classes for various orgs. When I was a kid I trained in an ATA school for about a year and a half. More recently, as an adult, I spent a few months in an ITF class, which I was quite excited about, but it was a very disappointing experience. I also checked out a WTF class a few times.

I actually think WTF TKD is cool, but like you say, if you don't know what's going on it actually looks kind of ridiculous sometimes. Still, I would like to do it. Just gotta find the time and money.

BTW, there's a former kickboxer named Steve Vick who comes from a WTF background and he's perhaps the #1 factor in getting me interested in Olympic TKD. If you're not familiar with him, you may want to give these a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRHQRk0mdk

I may have missed it, but what would the rules be for Olympic Karate? The only karate competition I've really seen was stop-point sparring, which wasn't very exciting to watch, either, in my opinion.

All indications are that, if Karate DOES make it into the Olympics, it's going to be of the WKF variety, which is stop-point.

You can find the rules here (start on page 9):

http://www.wkf.net/images/downloads/...ULES%207_1.pdf

And you can watch some vids here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WKFKarateWorldChamps

 

[SPX]

you may train as you wish, but what I see in Olympic tkd is just a shame! The least they could have done is make it mostly like standard sport sparring! what they have instead is not even combative sport to speak of.

You have to remember that Olympic TKD was intentionally designed in a way that would differentiate it from kickboxing, karate and ITF TKD. They wanted it to be it's own thing. Considering those circumstances, I think they succeeded.

Also, if you were to actually fight a good TKD player you might find it to be a surprising experience. Those guys have a great understanding of distance, timing and footwork. They're also fast as hell and, training full-contact as they do, they're tough. And they'll take your head off with a kick if you're not careful.

 

[SPX]

That is a very crass statement.

My bad.

My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO then first. . .

That's not true. There are plenty of grappling positions in which you could gouge someone's eyes out. It was illegal in the first UFCs for a reason.

You are using the wrong word, karate and other styles aren't 'watered down' at all, what happens is that karateka when sparring may pull their strikes ie not go in full contact. This is different from being watered down. Something 'watered down' is something that's been diluted, in this case it would be karate that's not taught properly of only teaching a couple of techniques. Most karateka can go full on if they choose because their style isn't watered down at all.

The point, Tez, if it's not clear--and you have a long history of, I think, intentionally missing the point of everything I say--is that "sport" martial arts have a long history of producing participants who have better self-defense skills than those which do not, because of the "alive" training and the lack of reliance on drills with compliant partners. Boxing, Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate, Judo . . . these are all sports, but I would put my money on its fighters in an SD situation to make it out unscathed long before I would put my money on someone who has trained in a "self-defense" style but who has little experience actually applying their techniques against a resisting, aggressive attacker.

I haven't seen many TKD people on here say that it's leaving the Olympics and karate taking it's place.

It was a while back now, but it has been discussed.

 

[Tez3]

SPX, I don't think we have a long history of anything. I don't misunderstand you at all, you said karate is watered down and I said no it's not. That's simple enough. I don't actually think you know enough to give a definative opinion on karate. Do you think then that all what you call 'non sport' karate styles don't train against resisting opponenents? Are you assuming that you know how all karate styles train?
You are making the mistake too of assuming because something was made 'illegal' in a UFC fight it must be a lethal technique rather than perhaps thinking as it was that the hype of saying 'eye gouges banned' makes the competition sound dangerous and therefore more inviting to those who want to buy tickets to watch. I think you need to have a closer look into those early UFCs to see just how much of those fights were worked and set up. People place too much store by those early shows and forget that it was a money making venture rather than a genuine attempt to find out what martial art was better than others.

 

[SPX]

SPX, I don't think we have a long history of anything. I don't misunderstand you at all, you said karate is watered down and I said no it's not. That's simple enough.

Depends on what you mean by "watered down." In the way that I mean it, yes, it is.

I don't actually think you know enough to give a definative opinion on karate. Do you think then that all what you call 'non sport' karate styles don't train against resisting opponenents? Are you assuming that you know how all karate styles train?

Well first off, there are literally hundreds of karate styles, so no, I don't assume that. I hope that no one does.

And if I believe that no non-sport styles spar, then I would not have said this:

"And when--if--they actually do spar and really hit each other? It usually looks a lot like kickboxing, the same kind of free sparring that you can find in 'sport' schools all over the world."

And that's exactly why it seems to me that you delight in arguing with me. Because you frequently disregard much of what I actually say and give replies that don't show an understanding of the points that I make.

You are making the mistake too of assuming because something was made 'illegal' in a UFC fight it must be a lethal technique rather than perhaps thinking as it was that the hype of saying 'eye gouges banned' makes the competition sound dangerous and therefore more inviting to those who want to buy tickets to watch.

I think they made it illegal because it's a horrible thing to do to somebody and, just as I pointed out earlier, you certainly don't have to knock someone out to do it. Have you ever been put in an RNC? While both of that person's hands were busy locking in the choke, what's to keep you from reaching back and clawing their eyes out? Rules and/or human goodness is the only thing.

I think you need to have a closer look into those early UFCs to see just how much of those fights were worked and set up. People place too much store by those early shows and forget that it was a money making venture rather than a genuine attempt to find out what martial art was better than others.

I have looked into it extensively. I do agree that there was some shadiness going on and that the Gracies made some moves with the matchmaking to intentionally stack the deck in favor of Royce. But as for out-and-out fixing a match, no, I've never run across any evidence for that. If you can provide some then I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Depends on what you mean by "watered down." In the way that I mean it, yes, it is.

Then perhaps you would do one of two things. Either
1 - Enlighten us all as to what your definition of "watered down" is, or
2 - Stick to the normally accepted and understood definitions.

I think they made it illegal because it's a horrible thing to do to somebody and, just as I pointed out earlier, you certainly don't have to knock someone out to do it. Have you ever been put in an RNC? While both of that person's hands were busy locking in the choke, what's to keep you from reaching back and clawing their eyes out? Rules and/or human goodness is the only thing.

Or, how about this: it's not that easy to do. Eyeballs are incredibly sensistive and contact with them is incredibly painful. They're also a lot more durable than most people think. I honestly do not think you could generate enough pressure in the position you describe to damage someones eyes. Cause them pain? Sure. Give them a corneal abrassion? Sure. Blind them? I don't believe you could, no. I've seen a lot of eye injuries in the years I've spent patching people up in the ER. And I've lost an eye to a knife injury. I think that puts me in a position to say that what Tez is saying on this subject is correct.

 

[SPX]

Then perhaps you would do one of two things. Either
1 - Enlighten us all as to what your definition of "watered down" is, or
2 - Stick to the normally accepted and understood definitions.

I guess I thought I made it clear in previous posts what I was talking about, but by saying that karate is in itself "watered down" out of necessity, I'm saying that you simply can't ever actually do the "self defense" techniques that are part of the curriculum. You can perform drills and the like, which I don't object to or anything, but it's not like you ACTUALLY punch throats, break arms, etc during your training. So most karateka who make derogatory statements about sport karate by saying things like, "My karate is for self-defense, it's not that useless/watered down/etc sport karate!," are kind of funny, because by and large--especially those groups who don't really do any sparring--those types are well-versed in the theory of fighting but haven't done much actual fighting. It's no secret at this point that often times such martial artists find that their abilities break down when faced with an angry, aggressive attacker who refuses to co-operate as their compliant training partners have done in the past.

With sport karate--just like any sport martial art--those who do it have racked up a lot of hours, you know, actually fighting with people who are actively trying to fight them back. This is of immense value, not just in sport competitions, but also in self-defense situations, those exact situations that the "self-defense" karateka constantly train for.

Now I don't want you to get me wrong: I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a self-defense focus in karate schools. I believe that karate, just like most any martial art, should do its best to prepare you for anything. But what I AM saying is that training for sport develops many of the attributes that you also want to have on the street.

In particular, consider the participants in the WKF vids that I linked to and which were commented on earlier, rather negatively. Perhaps it all looks rather harmless, but I can assure you that if some random street thug were to mess with any of those guys the "sport karate" fighters would punch a whole through him and leave him collapsed on the sidewalk.

Also, the reason I put "sport karate" in quotes is because the line really is pretty murky. Plenty of people train in old school, self-defense oriented dojos that also devote some time to competition. The actual sport karate dojos that I've visited don't train for anything like what I see in the WKF vids. They are all about this right here, which I consider to be . . . of lower quality and lesser value:

Or, how about this: it's not that easy to do. Eyeballs are incredibly sensistive and contact with them is incredibly painful. They're also a lot more durable than most people think. I honestly do not think you could generate enough pressure in the position you describe to damage someones eyes. Cause them pain? Sure. Give them a corneal abrassion? Sure. Blind them? I don't believe you could, no. I've seen a lot of eye injuries in the years I've spent patching people up in the ER. And I've lost an eye to a knife injury. I think that puts me in a position to say that what Tez is saying on this subject is correct.

Well I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am not an expert at eye gouging, but I would not want my unprotected eyes to be available to someone with sharp nails to do as they wished to, regardless of the position.

But just so I understand correctly, you're telling me that you agree with this statement:

"My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO them first."

That is, you can't come up with any positions in which someone is still conscious in which you could potentially do permanent damage to their sight?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying about "sport" karate. I personally don't care for the taptap, ignore the head, touch and break while people debate on if you made contact rulesets. I'm a big fan of the ITF ruleset for amateurs, and go to full contact for pros.

Well I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am not an expert at eye gouging, but I would not want my unprotected eyes to be available to someone with sharp nails to do as they wished to, regardless of the position.

But just so I understand correctly, you're telling me that you agree with this statement:

"My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO them first."

That is, you can't come up with any positions in which someone is still conscious in which you could potentially do permanent damage to their sight?

Is it impossible? No. I guess I could get someone flat on their back, clamp their head between my knees and dig my thumbs into their eyes. Of course, that's not a very stable position for me to be in, so it's pretty damned likely that I'm going to fail in my attempt to destroy their eyes.
Is causing pain to the eyes easy? Yes. Is destroying the eyes easy? Not at all.

I'll restate. While it's not impossible to cause permanent injury to the human eye with your bare hands, it is certainly not easy. And in the specific case you chose to describe, I would say it would be pretty damned close to impossible. If I had you in a RNC and you chose to reach back and try to gouge out my eyes, all I'd have to do is move my head.
If not unconcious, the person would need to be pretty much helpless.
So you can, if you choose, split hairs till they bleed, but the fact is that Tez is far more correct than you.

 

[Tez3]

I see we've gone from 'gouge the eyes out' to 'damage the eyes' which of course is a more likely thing that actually taking the eyes out, all they have to do is put their head down a bit more onto yours.
An 'eye gouge' isn't what you think it is, you don't take their eyes out of the sockets, you actually poke your fingers or thumb into their eyes, it needs to be a surprise attack and it's designed to make your opponent let go of whatever he is holding of yours. There's no reason to think that anyone can't do it when needed and that includes a non martial artist. In fact when I've had to break up female fights in pubs etc quite often they are going for the eyes anyway.

Yes I've had a RNC put on me a lot of times, the best defences aren't reaching back and poking the eyes out. As Dirty Dog says hurting the eyes is much more likely and something I've seen often in boxing, sometimes deliberately so, a thumb in the eye is far from rare whether meant or not. I've seen it in MMA too usually accidental though or at least accidental looking.
As for worked fights in the UFC read John McCarthy's authobiography as well as looking at it a bit closer. It wasn't as it is now, different owners, different times, it was far shadier and far more iffy than now. Don't look back on it with rose coloured glasses.

I've heard a good many people state that you fight the way you train so taking that as being true how then do you think those who compete in points karate are going to fare in a real fight? They are so used to just touching with one strike and pulling away the chances of them being able to deliver hard strike repeatedly are practically nil. Those who practice SD against resisting opponents are far more likely to be successful, they will also use tried and tested techniques they know will work rather than strikes and kicks designed to win in a competition. It's rare that when being attacked or mugged you are going to be able to do your high spinning round house kick that looks so good in the competition even though there it may knock your opponent down.
By your definition though the competition karate/TKD is also watered down because they have to follow the rules, they have a ref and a time limit on which to plan out their tactics for the fight, a luxury not given in an assault/mugging situation.
It's not 'all sports styles are good at self defence and the non sports styles aren't' at all, you have to look at ever class and every instructor before you can state that. I know a club in London that doesn't compete but does 10 man kumite to grade, they train hard but don't enter comps. I know clubs that compete but know they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag if it was for real.
Too much generalisation doesn't make for good discussion.

BTW if you ever do successfully gouge an eye out I believe a spoon is the right instrument to put it back.

 

[Gorilla]

How did you guys turn a K is on the way thread to eye gouging...beyond funny!

 

[Tez3]

How did you guys turn a K is on the way thread to eye gouging...beyond funny!

LOL, the 'eye gouge' thing always makes me laugh, it's thought by some to be the epitome of martial arts nastiness (or badass for Americans lol) personally I always thought tearing off the testicles as that but there you go. Hands up who winced then :uhyeah:.


I think the point that SPX is trying to make is that sports karateka are better at self defence because the people who only do SD can't do eye gouges for real so karate woiuld be really good in the Olympics.

 

[Gorilla]

http://www.wkf.net/index.php/dummy-wkf-news/135-ioc-members-visit-the-41st-world-championship.html

IOC visited WKF Championships in France! Hopefully this will get the thread back on track....

 

[chinto]

I have sparred with TKD people. some are very good and some are not. but also there is a huge range of thing called TKD. some look like shotokan more then most things, and are very self defense capible, and then there is the other end that is the olympic with out hands and just not designed to be for self defense.

 

[SPX]

I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole.

This is what I would like to see, especially adults. Most karate classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.

 

[SPX]

This is being organized by the WKF....karate is by and large considered the front runner for inclusion in 2020...Las Vegas odds makers have given it the number one slot...do a little research on the internet and you will see!

Is that so? I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it's not a pipe dream then.

 

[Tez3]

This is what I would like to see, especially adults. Most karate classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.

so you're style bashing basically? You want to see more people 'do' karate but it's actually rubbish..........