That.
Does Gracie BJJ originally TMA? Did the first few UFC consisted of all different TMA people? That's how it all started. I remember there was a Wing Chun guy, a Ninjitsu guy in UFC2. They just got the butt handed to them. There were Jodo, Karate and other styles. Just process of elimination what works and what doesn't. I don't think there is anything called MMA for quite a few years. In fact, MMA is a combination of technique that works from all different styles. They only pick technique that works.
This is that binary thing I was talking about. There are many things I can do reliably (in the right situation) against someone untrained or poorly trained - including folks not trained for grappling or grappling defense - but which will not work against a trained MMA fighter. So there are things that don't work (or don't work often enough) in MMA that can actually come into play outside MMA. And that's without even considering the difference in intent or objective.
You appear to assume everyone has the same motives you do.
It's a forum. It's what you joined to do, I assume.
Assuming they are. BJJ is an example of where this happens. I'm not sure all arts did the same at their height of popularity. Or maybe it was just a different definition of the "problem".
Yep. Let's not forget that at one point BJJ didn't have a very large talent pool. It had a few very determined (and possibly very talented) people who were intent on solving the problem.
I don't think that's necessarily true. If someone insults my art, they don't challenge its fame at all, since it never had any. Perhaps reputation is a better term?
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that MMA was a quick and shallow method of development. The point I think you're referring to in the post you quoted appears to be more about the "other stuff" often contained in TMA.
Well, since you're one of those people still talking in this thread, you should be able to answer your own question.
I sort of addressed that issue in my post here:
During the time before BJJ had millions of practitioners, they were busy training with, competing against, and stealing anything that worked from exponents of Judo, wrestling, lutra livre, Sambo, and other arts. Without the expanded talent pool of all those other arts, BJJ would not have been nearly as effective.
Talent and an earnest desire to learn something don't alone produce skill. If you take talented people and give them poor instruction, they will end up performing poorly. Some exceptional people may succeed entirely on their own in spite of the training. I don't disagree with the point. I just think it could be misleading.
I don't disagree, but the point about the talent pool still stands. I'll step away from martial arts and use guitar playing as an example.
Yep. Interestingly, I don't know that the top fight gyms are actually the best at teaching untalented students. I think they often just work on attracting the most talented and driven individuals and set them to pushing each other ("iron sharpens iron"). Personally I'm more focused on figuring the best way to teach people without those natural talents or attributes.
I wish I had started out with natural talent and athleticism. I'd be a lot better by now. I think it's more accurate to say that I started out in the bottom 1% in terms of talent, athleticism, and general fitness. The good news is that I think this gives me more insight in teaching students who start out with a similar lack of ability.
Not what I was discussing though, I’m saying as a martial artist one should be open minded
Good point. By reaching beyond their limited group, they effectively enlarged the talent pool working on the problem.
I think we're really close to saying the same thing. I agree with everything you've said. I'm simply trying to point out that talent is a uncontrollable variable, unless your goal is recruitment (i.e., my goal is to recruit top talent vs my goal is to refine my training model). If the latter, it's more useful (IMO) to presume that talent is an intangible trait, like athleticism, coordination, optimism, or resilience. You can improve these things over time, but they are traits, not skills. If the goal is to teach everyone skill regardless of their traits, then looking only at the best case scenarios can be misleading.
The problem in your reasoning here is that you are taking the above notion and translating it into meaning “if it isn’t used in MMA then it does not work.”
I took it as the opposite, "if you aren't sure if it works, use it in MMA and you will find out." And that is quite true.
