The issue with MMA community

[Deleted member 39746]

Just offhand, I can recall Ramsey Dewey showing techniques he has incorporated from Capoeira, telling the story of the time he got his butt kicked by an old Tai Chi master, and mentioning the time one of his students (who had an Aikido background) pulled off an Aikido throw in sparring that he had never seen someone pull off before. I've also seen him speak approvingly of a variety of other arts.

Just saw this, i think its the way they word it and the fact you are looking at a episonic of their opinion which can also change. thats where the confusion lays.


Now this has jogged my memory, i think a lot of the MMA/combat sport folks view the more tradtional martial arts as good for supplimentory exercise/something more than just fighting. And you probbly need to learn fighting through a combat sport to really unlock the TMA's potential. (at least i sort of got that from dewy, hard2hurt and a few others i watch, or used to)

 

[Flying Crane]

I am too old, and I am not talented.

MA is not for everybody, very few people can be good enough. But when we compare different styles, we compare ONLY of the best out of the best of that style. Most people have no place to represent the particular style even they practice the style.

UFC type of fight is for the best of the best. It's for people that think they are good enough and fight through the elimination process to get up there. So whoever goes on pay per view are the very few chosen ones. The question is whether the other styles that talk loud, can find talent to actually get into the Octagon to show the world they can win with their style to proof their style is worthy to be up there and can win.

Of cause, most that learn BJJ cannot make it into the octagon, only Gracie that has the talent be able to get up there to show to the world what BJJ is. Now the whole world knows and respect BJJ. Any style that think they deserve to be up there should put their money where their mouth is, recruit some talented people to learn their style, fight through the UFC elimination process. then show the world how good the style is. It's worth the trouble if you have the goods. Look at BJJ dojo is all over the place, it's world known now. If anyone style truly think they have the goods, put in the effort and stun the world, it will pay off. Don't just trash talk.

Wow. This is just…wow.

 

[Gyakuto]

The issue is being so open minded that your brain falls out!

 

[Zinobile]

Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?

No. Some things are meant to be devoured, not discussed

 

[Alan0354]

Wow. This is just…wow.

Truth hurts.

 

[Koryuhoka]

The issue with the MMA community is the TMA community. "traditional" martial arts had a moment in its history, where things changed for the worst. In karate, the "grade school" mentality swept away the real martial content. Practitioners from the west, accepted it the way it was, and never sought to bring things back to pre-1800s standards, when they were referred to as "jutsu". The worst thing to happen to karate was the conversion to "do", as in karate-do.

Except for a small handful of ryuha who use its theories, the whole idea of "ti" - Okinawa's original art, is all but disappeared.

The truth is that practically every technique used in MMA today originates from the Classical Martial Arts.

MMA methodology is to isolate techniques. That is no different from the concept of bunkai and oyo practiced in Okinawan dojo. People who say kata are useless, say so out of misinformation and lack of understanding. And this lack comes from the "do" mentality, as it is assumed by the MMA community.

When you learn a technique in MMA, you learn it step by step, and then you practice it until you can do it on the mat. When the MMA'ers see TMA breaking down and drilling technique for the same purpose, they say: "that will never work against a resisting opponent". It borders on hypocrisy.

Here is the thing though: karate is not a "kick/block/punch" art. It does contain those weapons, but that is only superficial. The fact that it is a fusion of Ti - Okinawa's original art - which is a Newaza, and Boxing Methods from China initially, makes Karate a Grappling art. It uses small joint manipulation AND Ti's Newaza, and the secret to uncovering the Newaza aspect of Karate lies in its Stances and Footwork.

Herein lies the discrepancy MMA people have with TMA.

The techniques are not practiced in the original intention, as modern interpretation has gotten in the way of that. Also, everyone became comfortable with this "way" (do) of doing things.

So in reality - we are one and the same... there. End of argument.

 

[drop bear]

I agree, in principle. What I think it sometimes missed in the often-binary look is where there are approaches that are less about direct application (some "techniques" in my opinion are actually drills).

With things like standing arm bars, I see them as edge cases. The control methods used in the dojo to get to them are the important part. And understanding how and why they don't work well, and how to transition to something else. And undertanding them for what they are (not restraints, certainly). And sometimes, there are things in a system that are just for fiddling with, to keep students active and practicing the principles. For some of us, that esoteric stuff keeps us going.

In the context of a testing ground though. Arm bars might be some thing you want to do. But they are not going to work outside mma if they don't work in it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Truth hurts.

I guess if it’s your truth, it might hurt you. What you describe is not my truth.

 

[drop bear]

The issue is being so open minded that your brain falls out!

Interestingly I would have though taking an idea. Jumping in the cage and trying it. Is the open minded response.

I mean does anyone remember when you couldn't kick people in the head on the streets because you get taken down?

I believed that until I saw it tested.

 

[drop bear]

Here is the thing though: karate is not a "kick/block/punch" art. It does contain those weapons, but that is only superficial. The fact that it is a fusion of Ti - Okinawa's original art - which is a Newaza, and Boxing Methods from China initially, makes Karate a Grappling art. It uses small joint manipulation AND Ti's Newaza, and the secret to uncovering the Newaza aspect of Karate lies in its Stances and Footwork.

And here is where the conflict comes up.

So then as the MMA guy I say great. Let's see that used in context. Let's see karate grappling used in a grappling comp or a MMA fight.

And then you say you can't because reasons.

And I dismiss it as something that might be fun subjectively. But not something that will help me grapple someone.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And you probbly need to learn fighting through a combat sport to really unlock the TMA's potential.

This is simplified, but it's an essential idea.

Basically, if you know how to fight then you can make a lot of things work. That can include not only high-percentage moves but also techniques which are lower-percentage or highly situational.

There are a lot of martial arts out there which have potentially useful techniques, tactics, and ideas, but have a training methodology which doesn't lead to reliable fighting skill or attributes. Thus, practitioners don't have good luck applying their techniques under stress or in a real fight. (I won't call this a "TMA" issue because I think that term is poorly defined and the problem is definitely not limited to traditional arts anyway.)

In the story I mentioned where Ramsey Dewey talks about seeing his student pull off an Aikido throw in sparring, he went to the student and said "I didn't know that sort of thing could actually work." His student's reply was something along the lines of "Aikido has some good stuff you can use once you know how to fight. The problem is that if you only train Aikido, you don't learn to fight."

 

[Alan0354]

I guess if it’s your truth, it might hurt you. What you describe is not my truth.

Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?

You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.

 

[Alan0354]

Interestingly I would have though taking an idea. Jumping in the cage and trying it. Is the open minded response.

I mean does anyone remember when you couldn't kick people in the head on the streets because you get taken down?

I believed that until I saw it tested.

I never understand why people and this thread keep talking. There are UFC gyms all over the country. I have one 3 minutes drive from where I live. Just take their skill and walk into the octagon. I am sure they have a way to let you try out. You don't talk MA, you do it.

Would it be something if a particular style can use there distinct style and beat everyone in the octagon? They will be well known overnight around the world like Grace BJJ. That, is big money business.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm going to put on my moderator hat for a moment and remind everybody that the MartialTalk terms of service prohibit art bashing.

You can express your opinion that certain training methodologies are good or not so good for developing usable skill.
You can express your opinion that certain techniques are effective or not effective.
You can express your opinion that you're waiting to see certain arts or techniques demonstrated under particular circumstances before you accept that they are effective.

What you can't say, without violating our TOS, is something like "(insert art name here) sucks, it's all a big fraud and no one should ever practice it."

Just a friendly reminder.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?

You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.

You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.

 

[Koryuhoka]

And here is where the conflict comes up.

So then as the MMA guy I say great. Let's see that used in context. Let's see karate grappling used in a grappling comp or a MMA fight.

And then you say you can't because reasons.

And I dismiss it as something that might be fun subjectively. But not something that will help me grapple someone.

Well dude.. I'm in my mid 60s and have nerve damage from training injuries. So I'm not personally doing it.. and there go your predicted "reasons". Someone might come along to whom I can teach these ideas. You may be able to see it.

 

[drop bear]

You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.

The art with ten million people will also just be better. Because you have ten million people working on a problem.

Subjectivity always gets added to these debates and it isn't really as important a factor.

If you want a technique to work. There are steps you have to go through to make it work. And working at an elite level is kind of one of them.

You can obviously experience fame in martial arts through other methods than UFC and most of them are easier. Which is why we are having this discussion. If people were not looking for recognition then nobody would be having this discussion.

The ramsey dewey master wong conflict is a good example. You can't say you have nothing to prove too loudly or too often without people figuring out you do have something to prove you just don't want to go prove it.

Otherwise UFC is a very interesting example because a lot of the techniques that are employed are incredibly basic. They are not master techniques from elite guys that nobody else can learn and be functional in. Which then becomes a very important reference point for your average Joe.

 

[drop bear]

Well dude.. I'm in my mid 60s and have nerve damage from training injuries. So I'm not personally doing it.. and there go your predicted "reasons". Someone might come along to whom I can teach these ideas. You may be able to see it.

You have students or training partners. Someone who could show his ability in say a beginner grappling competition?

At least present a case that the system you advocate is functional. And then say. Look I am not that guy. But here is an example of another guy making this idea work.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The art with ten million people will also just be better. Because you have ten million people working on a problem.

Not necessarily. It depends on how much they focus on that problem. If the art with 10mil is filled with people that believe in no-touch-jutsu, or have a standardized sparring set that's crap, while the art with 1thousand spends all their time training actually fighting, and cross-competes, while the cream of their crop might be worse than the cream-of-the-crop from the other style, in generality it might be a better style for fighting.

Subjectivity always gets added to these debates and it isn't really as important a factor.

If you want a technique to work. There are steps you have to go through to make it work. And working at an elite level is kind of one of them.

You can obviously experience fame in martial arts through other methods than UFC and most of them are easier. Which is why we are having this discussion. If people were not looking for recognition then nobody would be having this discussion.

Yup, but alan's argument was around why aren't specific people proving themselves in the ring to bring fame to their style. Which isn't everyone's goal. For the people who's goal it is, then alan's questions are legitimate.

 

[Koryuhoka]

You have students or training partners. Someone who could show his ability in say a beginner grappling competition?

At least present a case that the system you advocate is functional. And then say. Look I am not that guy. But here is an example of another guy making this idea work.

That's kind of what the statement you quoted says. I would like to find a complete beginner with whom to do this.