drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah.
Correct.
If people want to buy junk they are idiots. If people sell that junk they are unethical.
The issue with MMA community
- Thread starter Mider
- Start date
Yeah.
Correct.
If people want to buy junk they are idiots. If people sell that junk they are unethical.
Trondyne
Yellow Belt
Ok yes that move is probably not a real move...
How to know? Have someone show how they can use it in sparring against a resisting person.... If they can then I'd say it's real, if not then I'd say it's BS... I call people out all the time for showing some moves when they know what attack is coming, that's not sparring or fighting it's called a drill and when you know what's coming you can do anything....
Trondyne
Yellow Belt
How could you in any reasonable way be serious about that position? This is a rush to judgement without understanding the problem....
There's nothing about those fights that is an incitement of an art or style... Those guys went down because they had no experience fighting grapplers... LOL That's is all... A great boxer would also have went down and it's no indictment of boxing....
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah the drills need to come from live training experience.
The MMA folks I've talked to and played with only ever mentioned drills focused on the skills for direct application. It's possible some MMA places add in exercises that don't have efficient translation to fighting skill and things designed to be used if you stop training - I've just never heard anyone mention them.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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I feel like you're arguing against a stance I haven't taken. Yes, stuff that works against a trained fighter will work elsewhere.
Why learn things that aren't likely to work against someone who's highly trained? A few reasons. Firstly, I doubt I'll ever need to deal with someone who's highly trained. If I do, and they are currently in serious training, I'll be in trouble, regardless, since I'm not in heavy training. Secondly, some of this stuff is just fun to play with. As long as I find it has some reasonable application, I'm happy with it.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
No.
If you get in to a self defense fight you need high percentage techniques. This will improve your chances regardless as to their skill level. There is no "well I will probably fight an untrained guy"
Otherwise learn any old thing you want for fun.
Getting those two ideas confused will hurt you at some point.
That's very cool. Again, this seems to be unusual within MMA. That may simply be my perception. If it is, I'm confused by some of the complaints I've heard MMA folks put forth about TMA - forms and other exercises not being effective for teaching fighting.
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So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.
That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years. I watch a lot of UFC, just by the way they fight, I can even tell how old is the fight because they CONSTANTLY changing and improving.
You make this argument a lot. If the training teaches how to recognize the opportunity, then having edge-case techniques isn't a problem. If the opportunity never comes up, then no big deal. You just go back to the foundational stuff that is available more often. Including some esoteric bits doesn't preclude having good foundational material.
Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
well look at that: I began training in 1984 too. Looks like we have something in common after all.
I've experienced some less-than-optimal training as well, along the way. I moved on and found something else that I felt was better. That's how its done.
With all due respect, you spend three years training TKD some decades ago, and another few months with some other things. That is not a lot of instruction. I have no problem with your enthusiasm for MMA. De gustibus non disputandum est. If you like it, nobody can dispute that. It's just that MMA isn't the venue or the approach for everyone. Anyone who likes it should pursue it, watch it, as much as they want. There is nothing wrong with that.
But I think your relativly short round of actual instruction may be clouding your view. You see MMA as the answer to it all. Maybe for you it is. But you are unable to recognize that it simply isn't, for others.
I dunno what to tell you. I think you have some issues to work out.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Present a functional alternative.
Which is the element that is sorely lacking in this discussion.
Something that doesn't sound like a religious experience.
"You may not believe but I felt the spaghetti monsters light in my soul so I know the truth"
"I was walking down the street and the spirit of Odin pushed me out of the way of a speeding car. So I know it works"
Kind of thing.
Classical martial arts DO have defenses against the "ground game" and other tactics used in MMA.
The fact that no one has bothered to do the work of breaking down and analyzing the movements within the forms does not make them absent. People are just too hung up on seeing "flowery" or what they consider "useless" movements that they become blinded by misconceptions.
No one in the Classical Martial Arts communities has bothered to sit and look at what is being used in MMA.
I have, what I believe is an extensive curriculum of Brazilian Jiujitsu. When I watch this material, I am constantly noticing movements in the techniques that are found in the arts I trained in, and others of which I am familiar.
I realize that BJJ is just one component of MMA.
My point is that one cannot say theirs works, but the other's does not, simply because they all contain variations of the same techniques.
One should say:
(insert name of art) martial art does not work IN THE MMA THEATRE, because those who are teaching and practicing it, are not, or do not know how to apply it in that environment.
It has to be worded that way, because I worked, for many years, in protective services - Personal, Executive/Celebrity, Music and Fashion venues. All I ever trained in was Classical Martial Arts of Okinawa and China. I had my share of live engagements and have 2 successful knife disarms. Went home unscathed every time, and I owe that to my training. No one can deny me my experiences. I also understand that was a different arena, but if we are talking about effectiveness of martial arts as a whole...
This is my issue with the MMA community. We all do the same thing. But most of us have not all been applying it in its fullness.
It is irresponsible and inexcusable for this to have happened, but do not blame the art.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
as can a competent kung fu guy. or karate guy. or TKD guy. or...name whatever style you want here...
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
You know how kung fu people train? You've trained kung fu? ALL of it? I mean, I realize you had a few whole months of Wing Chun, and then you followed some bad advice on iron palm and hurt yourself. So you now know all about how kung fu people train, and what place forms take in training, and what other drills and applications are part of the whole of the training? really? ...interesting...
I wish I was so knowledgeable. I only know what I do. I don't entertain fantasies of knowing what everyone else does.
Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...
I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.
I'm not even sure that the best UFC fighter in the world would necessarily win against an average practitioner of a given weapons based system if you give him a weapon. Sure, he may have a physical advantage and good reflexes, but he has absolutely zero experience, knowledge, and muscle memory.
Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
3. Deal with multiple opponents
4. Handle both trained and untrained opponents who are much larger than you, and who behave very differently than they do in the ring.
5. Handle a variety of weapons, including sticks, knives, swords, or even firearms?
6. Deal with an attacker who may be wielding any of the above variety of weapons.
7. Make most efficient use of bodymechanics and techniques given the very big changes that subtle differences make when wearing clothes, shoes, lack of training gear, and the potential for weapons, multiple opponents, and all other factors mentioned here? People really under estimate how much of a difference small things make. *Really*
I'd also argue that the way people behave in a non sportive combat environment is very different. Committed, unskilled attacks are not always as easy to defend from as people think, and always practicing against uncommitted, skilled opponents sort of robs you of learning what you can do in response to them. Ending a fight is all about efficiency, and taking advantage openings that your opponent gives you while not getting hit, stabbed, or cut yourself. If you don't train versus a wide range of attacks at various distances and with all sorts of implements, your performance will be suboptimal for the situation.
My argument is a case for being unspecialized. Competitive fighters must specialize highly. On the other hand, people with a more general approach to preparedness and combat must specifically avoid specializing and adopt a general approach that can deal with a much broader spectrum of threats.
Let me just give you a very tiny example of how specialization hurts: In Filipino Martial Arts, most people train with a light weight rattan stick of exactly 28 inches. However, the moment you pick up a fighting weight stick twice the weight, or a stick that is a little longer or shorter, or indeed a blade or machete, things become extremely awkward if you haven't handled that specific length, weight, and shape or nature (blade versus impact) weapon before, and the nature of what you can and can't do with each one changes a lot more than you would think. If you always train with that one implement of a certain size and weight, I'm sure you can compete well in a stick fighting match. But you will be far less effective when wielding anything other than that 28 inch light weight rattan stick that you spend all your time training with.
Then, there's the nature of the sportive context in which you test your skills. Some people treat the stick as a stick. Some treat it as a blade. Others seem to totally ignore what would be, without protective equipment, lethal shots to the head and rush in for to grapple or take down, which I can't really understand. Decided norms around competition hugely affect how you test your art, and who would come out on top if you were competing.
That's just an example of minor differences, and applies across the board to things like wearing or not wearing gloves, etc.
Then there are things you simply don't train for at all if your focus is purely on competition, such as multiple attackers, hitting with your bare hands, dealing with weapons, multiple attackers, concrete, and all sorts of uncertainties which do not just change what you do a little bit, but completely.
I just watched a video of two trained, very competent sports fighters get into a street fight with a larger group of random people. They did really good, until one of the random guys picked up part a large piece of construction lumber laying around, and swung at one of them. Not knowing what to do, his natural, trained reaction was to back off and try to get out of range, and he wound up getting hit squarely in the head, knocked to the ground unconscious, and stomped on. You can say all you want that "oh, I know better than to do that" and "I can deal with X or Y" but until you've trained to do so and have ingrained and make it second nature, you had better think twice about whether or not you can, indeed, do what you say you can.
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I can see why you laugh at my post. You only worry about facing people that don't know anything. I am sure a competent boxer can handle most untrained people, just like I said even if I do weight training, the fact that I am stronger than someone that doesn't know how to fight, I can throw him around without knowing any MA.
I guess this is funny. We should only talk about facing people that doesn't know anything.
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