The issue with MMA community

[drop bear]

I've said something similar, only I said MMA in general is the proving ground. In any case, the idea is the same. A practitioner in an art outside of those most commonly practiced in MMA can deny this until the cows come home, but seeing is believing; and to show is to prove. And that's exactly what MMA does. That's why we call it the "proving ground."

I'm under the impression that many of us want to believe that we're Mr Miyagi or Jackie Chan, and can take down the big mean looking guys with the tattoos and the mohawks.

It is the best laboratory because it is really versatile. That basic mma platform can be used to test so many different dynamics consistently with that nice mix of saftey and realism.

You can experiment with weapons or multiple opponents of even obstacles without having to reinvent the wheel too much.

And it was something that was being tested bady without that platform and one of the reasons we have so many misconceptions about fighting and self defence.

 

[Alan0354]

It is the best laboratory because it is really versatile. That basic mma platform can be used to test so many different dynamics consistently with that nice mix of saftey and realism.

You can experiment with weapons or multiple opponents of even obstacles without having to reinvent the wheel too much.

And it was something that was being tested bady without that platform and one of the reasons we have so many misconceptions about fighting and self defence.

I would be so nice to eliminate a lot of the rules and go back to the early days of UFC. Don't have the balls, don't walk into the octagon.

 

[drop bear]

I would be so nice to eliminate a lot of the rules and go back to the early days of UFC. Don't have the balls, don't walk into the octagon.

I know guys who have done it. There was an Australian NHB league back in the day.

But you can't do it constantly. And therefore you don't really get good at it. Where if you have more rules you can do it more often.

It is like bare knuckle boxers. They don't train a heap of bare knuckle because they just can't get the volume of training needed to compete in a bare knuckle fight.

And this is where the my style is better than yours comes in to it.

Say I wanted to learn self defence on the street against a guy punching me.

It is more efficient to just be really good at grappling and then spend some of that time learning the specific dynamics of grappling and punching. Because you develop the tools to achieve that result better.

And so your BJJs your folk wrestling your judo and so on are just better styles for gaining those skills.

Then you could take that knowledge and then say do krav for example and be able to do krav functionality better than a krav expert because they have missed these massive functional necessities.

And we can see it. Not necessarily in the top tier UFCs because the individual talent issue. But with things like the wimp to warrior programs that put people in full contact fights inside six months.

Rokus is a prime example there where they took a guy with years of training and made him progress astronomically in a very short time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry to say, I am more on the MMA side. To put it in perspective, I never learn MMA, my main discipline is Tae Kwon Do which I spent almost 3 years. I learn some Wing Chun and 9 months of Judo when I was in Hong Kong. I don't know anything about BJJ, ground game, wrestling and all that. By the time MMA was available, I am way too old to learn.

To me, MA is the ART OF KICKING BUTT, not artistic. You want pretty and grace, go do ballet. UFC is the ULTIMATE proving ground for what works and what NOT. Particular the earlier days where the only rule were no eyes gauging, no biting. People with all disciplines went up there and very quickly ( only UFC 1, 2, 3) to show what worked and what didn't. People pick the ones that WORK and eliminate the ones that doesn't.

MMA is very practical and evolving very fast. You can see the change even watching back videos from 7 years ago. Basically, ones that boil down to is Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing hands ( combine to kick boxing), BJJ, wrestling, Muy Thai elbows and knees. These are proven by time and success. IF any style disagree, the octagon is WIDE OPEN for them to proof their worth. You beat them, you will earn your respect. You do not demand respect, YOU EARN IT. You feel passionate about this, train hard, find someone with the talent and go into the Octagon and win. They will give you all the respect you want.

Now, don't claim your style and fight like MMA, if you win by MMA style, that doesn't count. You win with your distinct style. Don't go up there and do kick boxing. And being from Hong Kong, I had a lot of exposure to the masters of different style. They talk too much. Like I said, MA is an art of kicking butt, don't beautify the meaning.

Sorry, as an outsider, this is how I see it. Talk is cheap, go win some matches with your style, then people will give you the due respect.

Go on youtube, look up Xu Ziaodung.

SORRY

The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.

 

[Flying Crane]

The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.

Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.

 

[Alan0354]

The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.

It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.

Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules. At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!

 

[Urban Trekker]

Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.

I don't think anyone has ever insinuated that. I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people who've defended themselves are untrained.

 

[Flying Crane]

It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.

Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules. At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!

Let us know when you are ready to walk in and have one of those fights. I am sure we can’t wait to hear about it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think anyone has ever insinuated that. I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people who've defended themselves are untrained.

I appreciate that clarity and perhaps you have not insinuated that. But it is a common theme around here.

 

[Alan0354]

Let us know when you are ready to walk in and have one of those fights. I am sure we can’t wait to hear about it.

In the next life perhaps.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the next life perhaps.

Ah see, it really isn’t for everybody.

 

[Alan0354]

Ah see, it really isn’t for everybody.

I am too old, and I am not talented.

MA is not for everybody, very few people can be good enough. But when we compare different styles, we compare ONLY of the best out of the best of that style. Most people have no place to represent the particular style even they practice the style.

UFC type of fight is for the best of the best. It's for people that think they are good enough and fight through the elimination process to get up there. So whoever goes on pay per view are the very few chosen ones. The question is whether the other styles that talk loud, can find talent to actually get into the Octagon to show the world they can win with their style to proof their style is worthy to be up there and can win.

Of cause, most that learn BJJ cannot make it into the octagon, only Gracie that has the talent be able to get up there to show to the world what BJJ is. Now the whole world knows and respect BJJ. Any style that think they deserve to be up there should put their money where their mouth is, recruit some talented people to learn their style, fight through the UFC elimination process. then show the world how good the style is. It's worth the trouble if you have the goods. Look at BJJ dojo is all over the place, it's world known now. If anyone style truly think they have the goods, put in the effort and stun the world, it will pay off. Don't just trash talk.

 

[Alan0354]

Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.

My main style is Tae Kwon Do, a style even heavily used in MMA for their kicking. I would be the first one to admit that if I face with an MMA guy with talent only of my level, train as hard and as long as I trained, I would get my butt whooped. That the guy will eat me for breakfast. Because as good as Tae Kwon Do kicks, it's only ONE dimension. MMA is multi-dimensional fighting skill.

To me, MMA is a complete system, I would have no chance against someone in my level that practice MMA. I would not trash talk MMA. The ONLY way I can even have a chance is eyes gauging and biting.

I cannot stress enough, I am very bitter about this, but it is the truth. Any style think they are better, get into the octagon and win some fights.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.

Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules. At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!

Eye gouging and biting aren’t all that much a game changer, in my opinion. But you kind of make my point with your first sentence.

 

[geezer]

....Most those that practice MMA have little patience for the martial version of "How many Angles can stand on the head of a pin"

Agreed. Unless you are an engineer getting paid to work on that kind of thing, I find it pretty abstruse. See for yourself:

 

[drop bear]

The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.

Yeah. But there is no platform for that specialist technique or system to work in context.

By this argument everything that doesn't work in MMA could work in another environment.

And that quite simply isn't the case.

So let's say shooting guns doesn’t work well in MMA. We still need to prove somewhere, shooting guns does work. (Which we can do a few ways. That is pretty easy)

Compare that to standing arm bars which is almost impossible to prove works anywhere.

 

[geezer]

Eye gouging and biting aren’t all that much a game changer, in my opinion. But you kind of make my point with your first sentence.

Eye gouging can create an opening, but only if you have the skills to back it up. I remember back in high school (about 50 years ago!!!) we would have challenge matches to see who would represent our school in each weight class when we went up against other schools.

One time I challenged an older guy named Bob who could always beat me, but I still went in with 100% of what I had. Amazingly, I actually got the take-down and followed it with a really fast pin! Turned out, when I set up my shoot by throwing my hands up high towards his face, I had accidentally gouged the guy right in the eyes. Man was he pissed afterward ...and his eyes were all red and tearing profusely.

Still, Coach gave me the win and let me have the slot to compete in the upcoming match. I asked him why, when Bob was obviously the better wrestler and I had unintentionally broken the rules. He pointed out that the upcoming match wasn't a big deal (more like a practice match), and it would be good experience for me. Besides, if Bob wanted to represent us in the major tournaments later in the season, he better get tough enough to take a little poke in the eyes.

The coaching strategy worked. If I remember right, after that Bob was undefeated for the rest of the season.

 

[Alan0354]

Eyes gouging and biting is NOT the solution for everything, but if someone like me that don't know anything about ground fighting, that's the ONLY option for bare knuckle fight that at least give me a chance. Grappling is slower, you do have time to search for the eye to poke and find a piece of meat to bite on IF you have a cool head. Let's face it, if you are only a striker, if your back is on the ground, you are DONE!!! At least eye gouging and biting will give you a slight chance.

If you doubt what I said, go to youtube and watch UFC1 and 2 again. Look at how pitiful those strikes were, boxers, Kung Fu, Karate............. If one only know striking kung fu, you seriously think you can do better? Sorry.


Now that I am old, it is normal for people at my age to use a cane. THIS, is the biggest equalizer. I join this forum not to talk about MA and bare knuckle fighting, I know my limit. I am on this forum mostly about cane and stick fight. I just kind of join in when I see something interesting. Now, adding a cane greatly shift the balance. I don't care about going into the ring, for me, it's self defense and survival.

 

[drop bear]

Eyes gouging and biting is NOT the solution for everything, but if someone like me that don't know anything about ground fighting, that's the ONLY option for bare knuckle fight that at least give me a chance. Grappling is slower, you do have time to search for the eye to poke and find a piece of meat to bite on IF you have a cool head. Let's face it, if you are only a striker, if your back is on the ground, you are DONE!!! At least eye gouging and biting will give you a slight chance.

If you doubt what I said, go to youtube and watch UFC1 and 2 again. Look at how pitiful those strikes were, boxers, Kung Fu, Karate............. If one only know striking kung fu, you seriously think you can do better? Sorry.


Now that I am old, it is normal for people at my age to use a cane. THIS, is the biggest equalizer. I join this forum not to talk about MA and bare knuckle fighting, I know my limit. I am on this forum mostly about cane and stick fight. I just kind of join in when I see something interesting. Now, adding a cane greatly shift the balance. I don't care about going into the ring, for me, it's self defense and survival.

You are still better off going through the correct mechanics of the escape.

So if you are going to bite or poke it should be to achieve these defensive positions. Otherwise just biting or poking can lead to you exposing yourself to more attacks or a worse position

Let's use the Von flue.

This is common with beginners in that they think they have your head then they are winning. But they are exposing themselves to a submission instead. So in reality you have to give up that headlock and do something else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But there is no platform for that specialist technique or system to work in context.

By this argument everything that doesn't work in MMA could work in another environment.

And that quite simply isn't the case.

So let's say shooting guns doesn’t work well in MMA. We still need to prove somewhere, shooting guns does work. (Which we can do a few ways. That is pretty easy)

Compare that to standing arm bars which is almost impossible to prove works anywhere.

I agree, in principle. What I think it sometimes missed in the often-binary look is where there are approaches that are less about direct application (some "techniques" in my opinion are actually drills).

With things like standing arm bars, I see them as edge cases. The control methods used in the dojo to get to them are the important part. And understanding how and why they don't work well, and how to transition to something else. And undertanding them for what they are (not restraints, certainly). And sometimes, there are things in a system that are just for fiddling with, to keep students active and practicing the principles. For some of us, that esoteric stuff keeps us going.