Symmetrical vs. Asymmetrical Martial Arts

[Martial D]

If your goal isn't sport, then sport training is irrelevant.

Just like if your goal is to win a wrestling match, training for X-on-1 or training knife defense is useless.

Is it though? What's the alternative?

Like, how else are you going to experience a real resisting opponent if not through sport based combat?

The only real alternative is to get into loads of real fights, and I'm not convinced that is a better option.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

great way of looking at it @skribs

 

[skribs]

Is it though? What's the alternative?

Like, how else are you going to experience a real resisting opponent if not through sport based combat?

The only real alternative is to get into loads of real fights, and I'm not convinced that is a better option.

Did you know that people can resist even if your training isn't sport based?

 

[Martial D]

Did you know that people can resist even if your training isn't sport based?

Did you think this through? How exactly does that work?

You can experience resistive combat by either fighting guys for real or strapping on gloves and doing it on the mat or in the ring.

What is your third way?

 

[skribs]

Did you think this through? How exactly does that work?

You can experience resistive combat by either fighting guys for real or strapping on gloves and doing it on the mat or in the ring.

What is your third way?

Start asymmetrical and go from there. One example of this is any point in a wrestling match where you start from the referee's position. Yes, I know it's a sport, but the same concept applies to non-sport systems.

"Did you think this through?" I've been training martial arts for over a third of my life and posted 3000 posts on this forum. I over-think everything, in case you couldn't tell by this post itself. Of course I thought it through.

 

[jobo]

Did you think this through? How exactly does that work?

You can experience resistive combat by either fighting guys for real or strapping on gloves and doing it on the mat or in the ring.

What is your third way?

theres less a third way, rather a continuum that runs from fully compliant to fully resistance, that is by and large impossible to quantify the level of resistance being used, even if you strap on gloves and fight . the maximum level of resistance the guy can muster is limited by his skill and physical attributes. so your no wiser unless you know he is a top level performer and he is going flat iut against you, then and only then can you have a marker

 

[Buka]

There's a nice way to block a full nelson, which is a symmetrical hold, as it's being applied by assuming your arms into a asymmetrical position - one umbrella-ing over your head and the other going across your abs towards the rear of your ribs.

 

[Martial D]

Start asymmetrical and go from there. One example of this is any point in a wrestling match where you start from the referee's position. Yes, I know it's a sport, but the same concept applies to non-sport systems.

"Did you think this through?" I've been training martial arts for over a third of my life and posted 3000 posts on this forum. I over-think everything, in case you couldn't tell by this post itself. Of course I thought it through.

The question though was how the heck does one learn to fight without fighting for real or sport based on the mat?

Your last post seemed to rather matter of factly state that 'not all resistive training is sport based'...

And I would agree. You can also get it by fighting people. But I already stated that, and you still made that post..so there must be another way besides those two.

What does it look like?

You are either fighting with rules(sport) or no rules(sport or real fight..you could conceivably do no rules sport fighting)

I just don't see another option. Since you seem to. I'd be curious to know what it is.

 

[skribs]

You are either fighting with rules(sport) or no rules(sport or real fight..you could conceivably do no rules sport fighting)

Asymmetrical sparring. There are rules to govern the training, but there is no winner or loser. There is only success or failure of the defender. The attacker's job is to make sure the defender executes the technique.

Let me give an example. I am the defender. My partner is the attacker.

1. He throws a punch combination. I get punched. I failed.
2. He throws a punch combination. I manage to grab his arm, but he punches me with his other hand. I failed.
3. He throws a punch combination. I manage to grab his arm, and keep him from punching me with his free hand. He escapes. I failed.
4. He throws a punch combination. I manage to grab his arm, and secure my grip, but I can't execute a take-down in a reasonable amount of time. I failed.
5. He throws a punch combination. I manage to grab his arm, and secure my grip, and execute the take-down, but he is able to bring me down with him. I failed.
6. He throws a punch combination. I manage to grab his arm, and secure my grip, and execute the take-down, but I lose my grip in the level change. I failed.
   
7. He throws a punch combination. I manage to get him down into a controlled position, but I don't have the right leverage for the submission. I don't get a chance to correct this. I failed.
8. He throws a punch combination. I manage to get him down into a controlled position, and I take too long to decide the right submission to take. I failed.
9. He throws a punch combination. I block until I am able to grab hold, and control the situation until his only option is to tap. I succeeded.

For him, there is no "success" and "failure". There is no winning or losing. His only goal is to give me a good test of my abilities. There are rules, and to some degree it is a game. If at any point I hesitate, fail to execute, or leave an opening, then I fail. Half of the time, even if I succeed, my Master tells me why I failed, something I left open that my opponent didn't see. There are also rules relating to how much force we can use, because we're not about broken bones and concussions.

This is not a real fight. It is not sport-based. It is asymmetrical. But there is definitely resistance. These sparring matches are not scripted, and we take turns who is the attacker and defender.

It's similar (but opposite) to puppies or kittens playing chase, in which one plays the role of the predator, and the other the prey. In Chase, the predator is the one who is the focus, since good chasing skills are necessary for the hunt. In the case of us, it is the prey - the defender - who is the focus, so we can train to defend ourselves from predators.

 

[skribs]

@Martial D

Another example I just thought of - the videos by Ramsey Dewey where he tests self-defense videos. As much as I can't stand him (because I think he's arrogant, and half the time doesn't seem to understand the subtleties and concepts of the techniques he's testing), the videos he does are a perfect showcase of asymmetric training. Where they will test techniques and add resistance.

It's not a fight or a sport, but it does tell him what he can have success with or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm saying without doing what you arbitrarilly categorized as a symetrical art is the path to learning how to fight. After that is done, or in motion, giving you some idea of distance, timing, pressure, stress/fear(of getting clobbered), etc..then what you call asymetrical (fantasy knife drills, contrived multiple attackers scenarios, etc) might be good as suplimentary training.

But without the first one. The second one is useless, or worse, a false sense of security.

Asymmetrical drills would also include telling one person "your goal is to submit him" and the other "your goal is to stand up". I consider those as important a part of training as the symmetrical drills, because they force you to work on a specific area.

 

[skribs]

Asymmetrical drills would also include telling one person "your goal is to submit him" and the other "your goal is to stand up". I consider those as important a part of training as the symmetrical drills, because they force you to work on a specific area.

There was a drill I saw another school doing when getting ready for a TKD tournament.

1. Round one, partner of similar height, try and tag your opponent on the shoulder.
2. Round two, different partner of similar height, try and tag your opponent on the knee.
3. Round three, partner of different height. Tall person: try and tag your opponent on the knee. Short person: try and tag your opponent on the shoulder.

 

[dvcochran]

Both drills are pretty common. I am not sure what the discussion really is.

I mean an asymmetric drill would be any attacker defender.

And a symmetric drill would be sparring.

Agree.
@skribs post is a great one but when you boil it all down I feel it is the martial art vs. martial sport discussion.
I cannot think of a sport that is not symmetrical & asymmetrical, depending on how you look at them. Both teams/opponents are trying to win in the same fashion; both teams/opponents are trying to prevent the other from winning.
Any martial arts with a true self defense component should be the ideal "what if" training. Contingency plans for things outside the symmetry of our normal, day-to-day life.
IF you are practicing a wholistic martial art there has to be heavy doses of both types of training, and they compliment each other. If for no other reason than the physical improvements from symmetrical training, it will help you in your asymmetrical scenarios. The reasoning and mentality learned in asymmetrical training should help a person in the ring or on the mat. The paradigms go on and on.
I think the bigger or higher value question is how the two add value to each other in the martial arts? How they balance each other out, or even it always they should?
I took a long journey on a mostly absolute path of "symmetry" or martial sport for a while. There were high's and low's but I look back on that time in a good light and learned a lot even though I had been practicing a MA for some time.
I have worked in LE and definitely understand the asymmetrical side of your post. That is a switch that you have to be able and willing to turn completely on in an instant and then back off when an encounter is over. Definitely a learned/conditioned process.

 

[Buka]

There was a drill I saw another school doing when getting ready for a TKD tournament.

1. Round one, partner of similar height, try and tag your opponent on the shoulder.
2. Round two, different partner of similar height, try and tag your opponent on the knee.
3. Round three, partner of different height. Tall person: try and tag your opponent on the knee. Short person: try and tag your opponent on the shoulder.

When preparing for competition I strongly advise against drills that tag non scoring areas.

 

[skribs]

When preparing for competition I strongly advise against drills that tag non scoring areas.

I mean, it was literally a tag with the hands, which are non scoring anyway. I think it was more of a warmup game than anything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is it though? What's the alternative?

Like, how else are you going to experience a real resisting opponent if not through sport based combat?

The only real alternative is to get into loads of real fights, and I'm not convinced that is a better option.

This might be a difference of semantics. Would you include things outside of formal competitions in "sport"?

I think good, strong resistance is important. I don't think it has to be in a formal competition, though that's a convenient way to get a wide range of opponents to work with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When preparing for competition I strongly advise against drills that tag non scoring areas.

I'm not wild about using them much outside of sport, either. However, they do give a way to get some timid folks attacking targets. I can get almost any student to punch me moderately hard in the shoulder, while many early students won't commit to a punch even to the body (much less the head).

 

[skribs]

I'm not wild about using them much outside of sport, either. However, they do give a way to get some timid folks attacking targets. I can get almost any student to punch me moderately hard in the shoulder, while many early students won't commit to a punch even to the body (much less the head).

In Taekwondo, I'll try and get the students to do light contact with me even if I don't have gear on. If we have an odd number of students, I'll spar with them. I'll tell them light contact is okay, but they are scared to.

I'll pat my belly and say "don't worry, I have enough padding", but they still don't want to kick me.

 

[donald1]

Funny, I had an entirely different concept of symmetrical/asymmetrical.

I was thinking the Same thing. In my mind I was imagining forms that are symmetrical. The techniques you perform facing one direction then mirror the same techniques to the other side.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In Taekwondo, I'll try and get the students to do light contact with me even if I don't have gear on. If we have an odd number of students, I'll spar with them. I'll tell them light contact is okay, but they are scared to.

I'll pat my belly and say "don't worry, I have enough padding", but they still don't want to kick me.

I was doing some light, technical sparring with a student (about 6 months at once a week) last week. Just really loose stuff. She tapped me on the head...REAAAALLY lightly. And she immediately stopped, dropped her guard and started apologizing. Doesn't seem to matter what I tell them before sparring - it takes some folks a while to be okay with that.