The Facts about Spanking - Science shows...

[Empty Hands]

I know that sounds mean spirited but, honestly, as I noted earlier in this thread, there is a reason why people who study for degrees in such subjects get short shrift from the rest of their peers. I am also besemirched as I had to take Sociology as one of the threads of my Economics degree ... I feel sullied ;lol:.

Well my friend, you'd hate to see what us "real scientists" call economists...

This whole debate becomes a purity pissing match. Plenty of scientists think that biology (my field) isn't a "real science." Studies show what they show, the data is the data. The errors creep in from interpretation. There are plenty of methods, statistical and otherwise, to account for a difficulty to control variables, and good social science can be done.

 

[Sukerkin]

Exactly :applause:. I didn't say that good social science couldn't be done ... just that you really have to be careful about what psycho-babble ... sorry, astute theorem ... you listen to .

All hail the mathematician ...

... oh and I love the squid the biologist is holding .

 

[Empty Hands]

... oh and I love the squid the biologist is holding .

I couldn't accomplish a thing without my Lab Helper Squid. Plus, we have trained cuttlefish minions for security.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ha! We're IT. You think you have data; you do not. You have numbers. We have data. If you're nice to us, we'll let you have access to it.

 

[Archangel M]

Thing is...this sort of "science" is applied where? If anything it will only influence the "thoughtful" parent who actually considers HOW and WHEN to discipline their children for THEIR (the child's) benefit. These types of people will be successful regardless of if they spank or not IMO. The "WHERES MY BELT!!!!" type of parent wont care one whit for what this study says and won't change their ways.

This is "science for social change" stuff IMO...this is the sort of stuff some "socially aware scientists" hope to push to the forefront in the hopes that it will be used to influence LEGISLATION. That way this "science" can be forced on all of us when our children call 911 for a swat on the ***. Or when some busybody calls CPS because she saw me give my daughter a smack on the behind for yanking her hand out of mine and taking a run into the street.

 

[Makalakumu]

Thing is...this sort of "science" is applied where? If anything it will only influence the "thoughtful" parent who actually considers HOW and WHEN to discipline their children for THEIR (the child's) benefit. These types of people will be successful regardless of if they spank or not IMO. The "WHERES MY BELT!!!!" type of parent wont care one whit for what this study says and won't change their ways.

This is "science for social change" stuff IMO...this is the sort of stuff some "socially aware scientists" hope to push to the forefront in the hopes that it will be used to influence LEGISLATION. That way this "science" can be forced on all of us when our children call 911 for a swat on the ***. Or when some busybody calls CPS because she saw me give my daughter a smack on the behind for yanking her hand out of mine and taking a run into the street.

Great point. We don't need anymore no tolerance policies.

All the control freaks out there need to let rational people talk about this stuff and take it in. From a scientific point of view, I most people could all agree that the more we strike a kids, the more likely it becomes that they will suffer some negative effects from it. One swat every once in a great while probably isn't going to make much of a difference.

My argument against spanking is a moral one and it's separate from the science actually. I reserve violence for self defense, therefore the application of force for corrective behavior purposes is out. I don't believe in forcing others to accept my argument. Reject or accept it if you wish.

 

[elder999]

All the control freaks out there need to let rational people talk about this stuff and take it in. From a scientific point of view, I most people could all agree that the more we strike a kids, the more likely it becomes that they will suffer some negative effects from it. One swat every once in a great while probably isn't going to make much of a difference.

My argument against spanking is a moral one and it's separate from the science actually. I reserve violence for self defense, therefore the application of force for corrective behavior purposes is out. I don't believe in forcing others to accept my argument. Reject or accept it if you wish.

Oh, okay then:

 

[Makalakumu]

Oh, okay then:

That's surprising considering this is the 108th post.

 

[Buka]

Hell of an interesting read, this thread.

The first post, that radio vid, said this -

"Spanking remains one of the most common strategies to reduce undesired behaviors"
"More than half of thirteen and fourteen year olds are still being hit an average of eight times a year."
"Ninety percent of parents spank their toddlers at least three times a week; two thirds spank them once a day."
"One of four parents begin to spank when their child is 6 months old."
"20 percent of high school seniors get spanked."

Every one of those stats is SO full of crap I can't believe they were said, or anyone would believe them.

I think I should do a study on these studies. Maybe I can get a grant.

 

[punisher73]

I guess a stupid question at this point would be

Define spanking...

Seriously, are they (you know....THEM lol) considering giving a child one swat on the butt a spanking? How many swats is considered spanking?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

See, that's what happens when you ignore a thread for a few days, awesome xkcd comics get posted and then you're all johnny-come-lately. Glad to see the trend of quoting comics is picking up though, starting a revolution!!

Anyway...

What's your background, Phantom?

I enquire because asking the very question of whether it is science or not is quite fundamental.

My background consists of a Bachelor's degree in Liberal Arts which involved some psychology courses, a law degree that involves indirect references to human studies (eyewitness reliability and the like), and numerous discussions with a friend who's got a specific degree in some form of developmental psych. In short, I'm an admitted amateur, and know just enough to be dangerous.

That being said, the same concerns that you and Nomad cite regarding the softer sciences are equally plausible in any scientific inquiry. Take cancer studies, for example; "x" behavior has "y" risk of causing cancer is riddled with a correlative risks. Just ask xkcd: http://xkcd.com/925/

So filtering out outliers, researcher bias, placebo effects, guiding questions, and all that other stuff you learn about in Statistics class (which I successfully avoided, thank the gods) is just as important for hard science topics as soft sciences. So my question remains: what about the human sciences is so fundamentally different? Is it just that it's wishy-washy topics? Is it a fear of having the human condition become quantifiable? A worry about seeking justifications? What?

 

[Nomad]

Actually, it's amazing just how many of the comics at xkcd are relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Actually, it's amazing just how many of the comics at xkcd are relevant to the topic at hand.

I was actually trying to find that individual comic once for a response to....it was either billicihak or TF, I can't recall which...in another thread. Had trouble locating it in the archive though. :rofl:

 

[Blade96]

I'd be a perfect example of them studies. I was born to punitive parents and never bonded to either of them. (I loved my cat and that was it.) I was abused in school and took out my anger at home. I got beaten with big leather belts and when i was too old my parents switched that to taking all of my stuff and ripping it up even tearing clothes off my back. They are abusive and controlling. It didn't change my behavior. I got worse to the point of if they had pressed charge, or someone else, I would have a criminal record by now. I grew up hating and being afraid of my dad. They much better now, but even to this day I don't feel any love for them, and my dad has no idea of the harm he has caused. I once asked him if he could go back would he do anything diffrent. He said nope cause he did what he thought was right at the time. Yeah, its really right to make your child hate you and scared of you and not respecting you at all. Yeah that's really right! He also was abusive to my mother and to this day thinks he did nothing wrong. and whenever we bring something up its 'that didn't happen.' Whatever, dad. Funny how he spanked my bro once and didnt like doing it so didnt do it again. He settled on breaking my bro's stuff and other punitive things. But he didnt mind using the belt on me and blaming me for it 'you had atrocious behavior' Needless to say, I don't believe in spanking. I still have problems and anger issues.

 

[granfire]

I'd be a perfect example of them studies. I was born to punitive parents and never bonded to either of them. (I loved my cat and that was it.) I was abused in school and took out my anger at home. I got beaten with big leather belts and when i was too old my parents switched that to taking all of my stuff and ripping it up even tearing clothes off my back. They are abusive and controlling. It didn't change my behavior. I got worse to the point of if they had pressed charge, or someone else, I would have a criminal record by now. I grew up hating and being afraid of my dad. They much better now, but even to this day I don't feel any love for them, and my dad has no idea of the harm he has caused. I once asked him if he could go back would he do anything diffrent. He said nope cause he did what he thought was right at the time. Yeah, its really right to make your child hate you and scared of you and not respecting you at all. Yeah that's really right! He also was abusive to my mother and to this day thinks he did nothing wrong. and whenever we bring something up its 'that didn't happen.' Whatever, dad. Funny how he spanked my bro once and didnt like doing it so didnt do it again. He settled on breaking my bro's stuff and other punitive things. But he didnt mind using the belt on me and blaming me for it 'you had atrocious behavior' Needless to say, I don't believe in spanking. I still have problems and anger issues.

But that's not 'spanking'
That's beating!

 

[Makalakumu]

But that's not 'spanking'
That's beating!

The research suggests that spanking causes a milder version of those effects. It's beating-lite, essentially.

 

[granfire]

The research suggests that spanking causes a milder version of those effects. It's beating-lite, essentially.

Like I said. My mom spanked me. I don't hate her. I don't think I ever did, past the adolescent attempts to separate my person from hers.
My dad - whom I love dearly, too, had a more subtle and more effective measure of punishment: Silent treatment. And I swear, to this day, it hits me more than physical punishment.

Like I said, I grew up around the psycho-stuff. I am skeptical.
I also understand that in families with severe physical punishment the psychological nourishment is all but non-existent.

 

[Sukerkin]

The research, I would suggest, is flawed, Maka.

It flies in the face of what almost everyone elses experiences have been. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong (tho' it is in my not at all humble opinion) but it essentially shines a light more on what the researchers wanted to 'prove' than what the true state of affairs really is.

For one last time, we know how badly undisciplined children turn out because we see it with our own eyes every day. That very necessary discipline does not have to be physical for all of them because every individual responds to different stimuli. But by far the simplest and most effective stimuli is straightforward spanking, done without rage and with explanation. If you (non-specific "You"), as an individual parent, don't want to do that, then fine. Just as long as you accept the consequences of that choice.

If it were left in my hands, then people who did not effectively discipline their children would serve the 'time' for the 'crimes' they commit, whatever they are (from playing music too loud all the way up to murder). That is of course hideously fraught with trips and hazards and probably isn't at all realistic but it gets across my feelings when the 'bleeding hearts' start spouting off.

In the end, the 'mathematics' of the situation are very simple. Society comes first, individuals second. Play by the rules or get excluded from the game. Those rules have to be enforced or society collapses and then we all lose. Removing the tools of enforcement makes the corruption of the game all the more likely.

I was going to make one last point how, to me, it is far more damaging to 'game' and 'torment' children into behaving by withdrawing love and bar-less confinement ('naughty step' kind of thing) but Gran covered it already.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well put Sukerkin. One last point I'd like to make is that a lot of violent behavior, aggression, depression and anxiety often seems normal when one is surrounded by that kind of behavior. We don't recognize the behaviors until we are faced with people who don't have them (and they seem weird to us) or we undertake a detailed examination of our lives for personal growth reasons. Perhaps the reason why this seems to fly in the face of common experience is because our common behavior is actually quite destructive and we are well adjusted to it.

When I consider research like this, I think of it as an important tool to reflect on and ask some tough questions. I was spanked. What kind of violent, aggressive, depressive and anxious behaviors do I have? What can I do to curb this in the future? How can I raise my own children to have less of these behaviors? In this small way, we can make the future a little better for everyone.

As far as alternatives to the raised hand go, I know they exist and I know they work for all kids if the parent is consistent and just in their application. Before reading a lot of this research, I thought that it almost didn't matter what a parent chose to do as long as they were duly diligent. Afterward, I feel like my opposition to corporal punishment with children has two major pillars. I didn't do it before because I didn't feel like it was consistent with what I was teaching in the dojo. Violence was a last resort and as long as alternatives existed, I would chose those. It was personal and that's where it stopped.

Ultimately, this research makes me wonder about the costs of spanking on a society as a whole. Do we shape our society to a nature of aggression and anxiety through our practice of child rearing? If so, what would our society look like without that aggression and anxiety?

Did these scientists engage in a project to socially engineer our society, or did they point out a practice that might be socially engineering our society?

 

[Blade96]

I don't hate my parents now. They are nowhere near anything like punitive anymore now. We're friends and we get along.

I just haven'treally forgiven for them being like that when i was a kid. Maybe my past would have been better. as would my behavior. I respond to kindness, always have.

and i appreciate it that they stood up for me when my bro treated me like crap (still is btw, I'm completely banned from their house and his life)