The Facts about Spanking - Science shows...

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe not, but do you think it was necessary?

I don't know, I have nothing else to compare it to.

And if it was necessary, why didn't the spankings/beatings have the desired effect of changing your behavior?

But they did. I did different bad things every day. Not the same thing over and over. I found new ways to be bad.

If you (general you) need to be punished nearly every day for something, then clearly the lesson isn't internalizing, yes?

No, I was just a real problem child.

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't know, I have nothing else to compare it to.



But they did. I did different bad things every day. Not the same thing over and over. I found new ways to be bad.



No, I was just a real problem child.

So now, as an adult with some experience under your belt... what DO you think would have worked? Or perhaps nothing was needed to be different because you turned out the way you are today.

For me I think if my dad was more strict about my studies and then at the same time allowed me a bit of breathing room after getting my GED (as opposed to sending me straight off to college) that I would've stayed in college (having the discipline to do the heavy studying that is required throughout) then perhaps things would be different. What killed me was the endlessly long lectures he gave thinking/hoping that I'll understand... instead I became bored as hell.
But I wasn't much of a problem child as in getting in trouble with the law. With school yes but nothing illegal where the cops had to have a "sit-down" with my dad.

 

[Empty Hands]

But they did. I did different bad things every day. Not the same thing over and over. I found new ways to be bad.

No, I was just a real problem child.

That explains so much!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So now, as an adult with some experience under your belt... what DO you think would have worked? Or perhaps nothing was needed to be different because you turned out the way you are today.

For me I think if my dad was more strict about my studies and then at the same time allowed me a bit of breathing room after getting my GED (as opposed to sending me straight off to college) that I would've stayed in college (having the discipline to do the heavy studying that is required throughout) then perhaps things would be different. What killed me was the endlessly long lectures he gave thinking/hoping that I'll understand... instead I became bored as hell.
But I wasn't much of a problem child as in getting in trouble with the law. With school yes but nothing illegal where the cops had to have a "sit-down" with my dad.

The only thing I think my parents could have done differently or better would have been to not try to teach me 'the value of a dollar' by forcing me to save every penny I earned and not allowed me to spend a portion of it as I saw fit. I have a lifetime of poor spending habits that basically involved spending money as soon as I get my hands on it. I won't blame them for my poor choices today, but I believe it started me down that path.

As far as the spanking goes, I have no idea, even in retrospect, of anything else would have been a better choice or resulted in a different outcome.

 

[MA-Caver]

The only thing I think my parents could have done differently or better would have been to not try to teach me 'the value of a dollar' by forcing me to save every penny I earned and not allowed me to spend a portion of it as I saw fit. I have a lifetime of poor spending habits that basically involved spending money as soon as I get my hands on it. I won't blame them for my poor choices today, but I believe it started me down that path.

As far as the spanking goes, I have no idea, even in retrospect, of anything else would have been a better choice or resulted in a different outcome.

Yeah same here with $$ but I've had to learn the hard way on saving it and spending it wisely. Looking for discounts or waiting... that is really hard... waiting to buy when have extra money to spend, denying the impulsiveness of it. But it pays off. When I set my mind to it I can save a tidy sum.

Who knows how different we would be had our parents taken different routes in raising each of us. We try not to think so but they DO have a major influence on how we live our lives today. ... hmm, seems like a new thread is starting... :uhyeah:

 

[Makalakumu]

What I mean by it is that it is the methodology that has worked for hundreds of thousands of years to give us reasonably stable and enduring societies - that's why there still is a human race (stable-ish societies).

OTOH, the advancement of the cause of human rights has been achieved through the extension of personhood to more and more people. Individual tribes have words for people that include themselves and everyone else is viewed as an other. For example, in Hawaiian, the word Ha, means breath or life and when you have Aloha, you are infused with this and become human. Outsiders are called Haole in Hawaiian, which means without breath, or without life, you aren't human.

Historically, when we extend the perception of personhood to others, it has led to a greater amount of peace and happiness. When we roll the perception of personhood back, it leads to tragedy and despair. Western society ended slavery and extended personhood to different races of men. Then, society broadened its definition again and extended the same perception of women. We are currently struggling to extend the same perception to homosexuals and eventually, I think, we will include children in this venture.

The core of perceiving someone as a person is to limit aggression against that person. When we limit aggression against a person, they experience liberty and flourish.

 

[Makalakumu]

It is best used among younger children BECAUSE they don't understand the consequences of their actions. Developmental psychology has shown that young children are no better at understanding you talking to them as your dog does. It will understand tone, but not the true meaning. They are limited to stimulus/response actions, thus if you do that, and you get a swat on the butt you correlate the pain that goes with the action and learn not to do it.

Children are NOT just "young adults" and can't understand logic the way people portray that. As they get older and understand more, then you can have other options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget's_theory_of_cognitive_development

Children are capable of using symbolic reasoning from very early ages, they can pick up a limited form of logic by four, they develop a concrete form of logic by 7, and children are capable of adult thought by puberty. Aggression against children is shown to retard this development.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm not going to add much to this. However, it somewhat amuses me to see martial artists decry the use of violence, and to use such hackneyed phrases as "violence never works." We KNOW damn well that in certain situations, violence is the ONLY thing that works, to pretend otherwise, is silly.

That's taken out of context. Self defense is one thing. Corporal punishment is another.

Here's the wiki on spanking to provide a little more definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking

 

[Makalakumu]

Lastly, here's a summary of the research I've read. Spanking is responsible for stress related biologic changes to the structure of the brain, resulting in...

1. Loss of IQ
2. Loss of EQ
3. Increased aggression
4. Lowered self esteem
5. Retarded development of adult cognitive abilities

It is strongly correlated with criminality, drug use, and adult violent behavior as well as anxiety, depression and other forms of mental illness.

That's just what I can remember from the top of my head from the original sources that were posted. This isn't sociology, exactly, it's brain science.

 

[msmitht]

Dunno about science but I was a little pain in the butt. I talked back at an early age and was extremely rude. When I was 7 my mom spanked me after a really bad day. I had used bad language in public and screamed at my mom and her friends. She explained to me that she loved me and then tanned my hide blue. Never before or again did she do that. I never disrespected her again. Lesson learned.Did she need to spank me? No. Did it work? Yes. I agree that in 99% of cases spanking will not help or goes too far.Nuff said.

 

[granfire]

Lastly, here's a summary of the research I've read. Spanking is responsible for stress related biologic changes to the structure of the brain, resulting in...

1. Loss of IQ
2. Loss of EQ
3. Increased aggression
4. Lowered self esteem
5. Retarded development of adult cognitive abilities

It is strongly correlated with criminality, drug use, and adult violent behavior as well as anxiety, depression and other forms of mental illness.

That's just what I can remember from the top of my head from the original sources that were posted. This isn't sociology, exactly, it's brain science.

I'd like to see follow up studies on that. I find it hard to believe that 'spanking' causes that.
Beating? mybe.

But you also know that low selfesteem is not a problem of prison inmates, right?

 

[Tez3]

I'd like to see follow up studies on that. I find it hard to believe that 'spanking' causes that.
Beating? mybe.

But you also know that low selfesteem is not a problem of prison inmates, right?

Funnily enough it is very common for inmates to have low self esteem, not the gang members types but the majority of prisoners who are in prison most often have problems other than just being criminals.
http://www.gimmeshelter.org.au/Allpages/prison.htm

 

[granfire]

Funnily enough it is very common for inmates to have low self esteem, not the gang members types but the majority of prisoners who are in prison most often have problems other than just being criminals.
http://www.gimmeshelter.org.au/Allpages/prison.htm

I wish I had actually listened to the source of it, but I had no idea that it would come in handy some ten years or so later
The study had compared self esteem levels between prisoners and college students...they noted that college students had a lot less than prisoners.

 

[Twin Fist]

lets see, people spanked the hell out of thier kids in my time, the 70's and no one took a gun to school.

now, no one spanks, and the schools are free fire zones

i believe your research is a collection of crap.

Lastly, here's a summary of the research I've read. Spanking is responsible for stress related biologic changes to the structure of the brain, resulting in...

1. Loss of IQ
2. Loss of EQ
3. Increased aggression
4. Lowered self esteem
5. Retarded development of adult cognitive abilities

It is strongly correlated with criminality, drug use, and adult violent behavior as well as anxiety, depression and other forms of mental illness.

That's just what I can remember from the top of my head from the original sources that were posted. This isn't sociology, exactly, it's brain science.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If my IQ is lower as a result of being spanked as a child, I shudder to think how bloody brilliant I would have been otherwise.
And my lowered self-esteem? Anyone care to hazard a guess on how poorly I think of myself?

And let's see...criminality. Hmmm. A decade in law enforcement, never been arrested, only contact with police has been speeding tickets and lately, a neighbor complaining about my dog. Very criminal. Drug use. Hmm, anyone here ever hear me say how great I think drugs are? I'm guessing not, since I generally advocate that drug pushers be put to death. Depression. Hmmm. Well, my financial situation is about as bad as it can get, I'm getting older and have lots of non-fun diseases now, and my hair fell out and I'm fat and my job is nearly always in jeopardy; if I'm depressed it seems only logical to be so, but nonetheless, I think I'm not depressed.

Violence? Well, yes. I loves me some violence. In the dojo. In the sparring ring. Otherwise, I don't indulge and you might have noted that I generally counsel that one good self-defense tactic is to run away if possible. Yes, there's a violent man talking.

So tell me, in what way have I been destroyed, torn down, and consigned to a life of crime due to having been spanked? To heck with the studies, I'm right here, right now. Explain how it is that I turned out well.

 

[punisher73]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget's_theory_of_cognitive_development

Children are capable of using symbolic reasoning from very early ages, they can pick up a limited form of logic by four, they develop a concrete form of logic by 7, and children are capable of adult thought by puberty. Aggression against children is shown to retard this development.

Misapplying what "symbolic reasoning means". Here is another website putting it into easier term

Right from wrong requires a conscious decision. A knowledge of the consequences of ones’ actions. 2-7 year olds really do not have that ability, yet. that is why we spend endless hours, days, months explaining…you do not hit your brother, it will hurt him and he will cry, etc. Ask before you take…all the lessons parents teach their children endlessly.

Taken from: http://mandela-children.org/childre...dren-start-to-learn-right-from-wrong.children

 

[granfire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget's_theory_of_cognitive_development

Children are capable of using symbolic reasoning from very early ages, they can pick up a limited form of logic by four, they develop a concrete form of logic by 7, and children are capable of adult thought by puberty. Aggression against children is shown to retard this development.

I don't see the posibility for a double blind study here.
You can't really prove that a kid is retarded in it's development because it got spanked.
(now, beating, abuse, I think we do agree that that is no good)

As a theory, it needs to be proven or disproven but I don't see either working to the fullest satisfaction of a scientific standard.

 

[punisher73]

Lastly, here's a summary of the research I've read. Spanking is responsible for stress related biologic changes to the structure of the brain, resulting in...

1. Loss of IQ
2. Loss of EQ
3. Increased aggression
4. Lowered self esteem
5. Retarded development of adult cognitive abilities

It is strongly correlated with criminality, drug use, and adult violent behavior as well as anxiety, depression and other forms of mental illness.

That's just what I can remember from the top of my head from the original sources that were posted. This isn't sociology, exactly, it's brain science.

I would say that it's poor sociology using "brain science" to support a position. How was the study done? Was there a group of healthy families that used appropriate spanking to raise their children vs. unhealthy families that just always spank inappropriately? What was the rest of the family life/background? There are a host of other variables that can't be accounted for to say that spanking CAUSES those things.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

lets see, people spanked the hell out of thier kids in my time, the 70's and no one took a gun to school.

now, no one spanks, and the schools are free fire zones

i believe your research is a collection of crap.

And this is causation instead of mere correlation why, exactly?

Incidentally, I did do a quick google on "school shooting statistics"--nothing really fancy--and came upon this page. While the website does describe a rise in school violence, it also mentions that said violence peaked in the 1990s, rather than current day. But, with specifics to school shootings, see here.

There is no single profile that describes the attackers. They come from a variety of ethnic groups, family situations, social groups at school, and levels of academic achievement. Many were part of the mainstream social group and had excellent grades. Most had never been in trouble at school or with the law or acted violently before. A small percentage had previously been diagnosed with mental health problems. The attackers did have some things in common:

• The attackers were males, 11 to 21, most between 13 and 18
• Almost all, 98 percent, suffered a loss of some sort before the attack and failed to cope with it well, becoming depressed or suicidal, and thinking of retaliation. The loss could be one of status, relationship, job, or health of the attacker or a loved one.
• Many attackers had been bullied, or felt injured or persecuted by others. In some cases the bullying was severe, and bullying seems to have been a factor in at least some of the attacks
• Most attackers had previous access to weapons and had used them before
• Most of the school shooting attackers were current students at the school, a few were former students
• Most showed no or few academic or behavioral changes before the attack, or even improved school performance
• One quarter were known to have abused alcohol or other drugs
• Over half of the attackers showed an interest in violence through books, movies, video games or, especially, their own creative works, such as stories or poetry
• Usually the attackers chose a specific target or targets ahead of time.
• School staff, faculty, or administrators were slightly more likely than fellow students to be chosen as targets
• The targets were among the victims in about half of the cases
• Over half of the non-target victims were students.
• Most attackers had multiple motivations, including: revenge, seeking attention or recognition, trying to fix a perceived problem, or suicide

"Lack of domestic discipline" is noticeably absent from the list. However, the page does note that most school shooting perpetrators come from a variety of backgrounds and family environments, leading one to believe that whether Pa's kicking your *** every day doesn't predict that Junior is or isn't going to bring a gun to school.

It's okay, I'm sure this study was crap too. :boing1:

 

[Makalakumu]

I'd like to see follow up studies on that. I find it hard to believe that 'spanking' causes that.
Beating? maybe.

The original studies are located in the original links. If anyone wants to read them and see the methodology, by all means go for it. As part of my profession, I end up reading a lot of this research anyway. So, I've seen some of this before. That said, if you get one spanking in your life, that's probably not going to cause stress related trauma to the brain. If you get spanked repeatedly for misbehaving, that different. If spanking is the #1 behavior correction tool used by parents, that's different again.

I want to clarify, we aren't talking about what people would normally consider abuse. This thread is about spanking and that it has been scientifically shown to cause stress related damage to the brain. The more its done, the more damage.