The Facts about Spanking - Science shows...

[Nomad]

Speaking for my own opinion only, I think spanking for a young child is a viable option if discipline is employed by the parent in when and how to use it. Some children are either too young for discussion to work, or too defiant for less invasive punishments to have any effect.

Exactly.

I don't think, however, that it's necessary. Should the parent decide, there are other means of enforcing discipline (denying privileges, extra work around the house, scare tactics) that don't carry the same risks as spanking does. Personally, I would prefer not to use spanking if I should be lucky enough to ever raise a child. I think that the "run amok" examples people use to argue that spanking is necessary are examples where no form of discipline was used at all.

Spanking in and of itself I don't like, but I really don't have a problem with per se. The undisciplined use of it by irresponsible parents who just want to enforce their will rather than actually discpline their child is of much more concern.

The use of "scare tactics" (whether it's cancelling playdates, taking away privileges, or getting a spanking) is only effective as a parenting technique if you follow through when challenged; otherwise kids will quickly learn that there's no bite behind your bark, and will further defy the rules. I've seen it happen. On the other hand, when my wife or I threaten a punishment of any kind to our daughters, we're taken seriously because we've been very consistent in following through. The corollary of this, of course, is that you have to be careful to never threaten something that you can't/won't follow through with.

With my preteen, I am finding that pushups for serious transgressions can be fairly effective as well, to steal a bit of discipline directly from the dojo (less a punishment than a reminder, and hey, it makes her stronger at the same time).

 

[Archangel M]

And as to the "science shows" part...

Like how science has shown how some foods are GOOD for us...uhhh wait now they are BAD for us....disregard they are now GOOD for us again?

Im even more skeptical when it comes to the "sciences" of psychology and sociology.

 

[Jenna]

Developmental psychology has shown that young children are no better at understanding you talking to them as your dog does. It will understand tone, but not the true meaning. They are limited to stimulus/response actions, thus if you do that, and you get a swat on the butt you correlate the pain that goes with the action and learn not to do it.

Stimulus-response? Pffft.. That is exactly the kind of absurd theory that I have come to expect of academia; created under test conditions which are a million miles away from the reality of average homes and dispensed to parents as a panacea to all the ills of parenthood.

Plainly a child will not understand your logic if you employ the logic of an adult.

Use the logic of a child in the language of that child and the child will understand perfectly. (Assuming we are talking about a child that can speak and comprehend words)

To say a child is no better than a dog and understands nothing but a). the tone of your voice or b). a smack, is a far cry from parenthood as I have experienced it.

I guess I have gone astray in not carrying a cane and smacking his hindquarters to keep him to heel, and in not ringing a bell like Pavlov to get him to sit up and beg at eating time

Woof

 

[Archangel M]

If I had a penny for every disobedient, spoiled brat I have observed throwing a tantrum while mommie tried to "reason" with the tyke I'd be moving into my new mansion.

Anecdotal I know..YMMV.

Of course I will take SOME attempt at discipline..spanking involved or not...vs the total LACK of any supervision which is the root of FAR more of our social problems than if you spank or not IMO.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Exactly.



The use of "scare tactics" (whether it's cancelling playdates, taking away privileges, or getting a spanking) is only effective as a parenting technique if you follow through when challenged; otherwise kids will quickly learn that there's no bite behind your bark, and will further defy the rules. I've seen it happen. On the other hand, when my wife or I threaten a punishment of any kind to our daughters, we're taken seriously because we've been very consistent in following through. The corollary of this, of course, is that you have to be careful to never threaten something that you can't/won't follow through with.

With my preteen, I am finding that pushups for serious transgressions can be fairly effective as well, to steal a bit of discipline directly from the dojo (less a punishment than a reminder, and hey, it makes her stronger at the same time).

Yeah, I totally agree with this actually. Whatever form of discipline a parent chooses, it would have to be consistently applied. Not only because the child will learn that the parent isn't willing to follow through, but also to make sure that the right lessons are getting across.

When I used the term "scare tactic", I was specifically referring to the practice of exposing kids to scary scenarios in order to dissuade them from certain paths. A trip to the local jail, or boot camps, or drives through bad parts of town, or visits to rehab clinics, for example. I'm not saying whether scare tactics are effective or not effective, just another alternative to physical punishment.

Again, all my posts are the opinions of a layperson. I'm not a parent and I'm certainly not a developmental psych. expert.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Of course I will take SOME attempt at discipline..spanking involved or not...vs the total LACK of any supervision which is the root of FAR more of our social problems than if you spank or not IMO.

This. Also, why can't I thank Archangel's post?

 

[Balrog]

How is spanking not beating? If I slapped an adult once, good and hard, to teach them a lesson, what would the law say about that?

If spanking is the last resort, what steps are taken before physical force is administered? Do all parents who spank follow those steps?

I never slapped my kids. Spanking is a couple of pops on the butt with the open hand. Beating involves a closed fist and/or hitting elsewhere on the body. If you slapped an adult, it would be assault, simply because you are not related to them.

Spanking should be strike three and presented as such: If you do (whatever) again, you will earn a spanking. This is after they have been asked to stop, then told to stop. Phrasing it that way puts the burden squarely on their shoulders. When the spanking is administered, it is reinforced: You were told that if you did (whatever) again, you would earn a spanking. You did it again. You have earned a spanking.

Do all parents follow those steps? Sadly, no, and I don't see why not. They are simple and nothing more than common sense.

 

[Archangel M]

This. Also, why can't I thank Archangel's post?

Am I on your ignore list?

 

[jks9199]

This. Also, why can't I thank Archangel's post?

Try reloading/refreshing the page. I've noticed that sometimes, the thanks feature "disappears" for all the posts after you use it once. A refresh usually seems to take care of it.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Am I on your ignore list?

I don't have anyone on my ignore list. In fact, I just added someone and then removed them to make sure. :lol: Oddly, I can thank your posts now. Glitch maybe? :shrug:

 

[Sukerkin]

This. Also, why can't I thank Archangel's post?

Try reloading the page - sometimes MT's server throws a wobbly and doesn't send some of the 'on click event' icons.

EDIT: Ah I see it's sorted now and JKS beat me to it .

 

[Sukerkin]

I wouldn't say that it has worked for thousands of years because not all cultures use physical punishments on their children.

I am surprised. I have to say that I think of corporal punishment as being universal, at least in the Western societies (and Japan) whose history I am pretty well versed in.

In other cultures however physical punishments are acceptable not only for children but also for women. Violence is violence as far as I'm concerned

Every time we have this discussion, this point of view comes forward. I can't see it as anything other than hyperbole and 'straw man' logic, even if the poster doesn't intend it that way. There is a world of difference between proper disciplining of a child and 'beating'. As I've said before (again whenever this topic comes up), I got a good hiding for some malfeasance or other many times as a wilful and aggressive child. Never was it a beating.

if you have to beat children to make them do what you want I think there's something very wrong.

I entirely agree.

 

[Sukerkin]

Im even more skeptical when it comes to the "sciences" of psychology and sociology.

There is a reason why every toilet roll dispenser at my first university had "Sociology Degrees - Please Take One" written on it :lol:.

 

[Big Don]

I'm not going to add much to this. However, it somewhat amuses me to see martial artists decry the use of violence, and to use such hackneyed phrases as "violence never works." We KNOW damn well that in certain situations, violence is the ONLY thing that works, to pretend otherwise, is silly.

 

[Sukerkin]

I confess that that implicit irony had occurred to me also .

To be fair to those that hold that spanking a child is as violent as beating someone, I can see their philosophical point of view. I just don't agree with it and find it remiss that those who don't wish to discipline their children physically want to impose the same restrictions on all of society, when we see all too clearly the end-product of such thinking. To be clear, I do give those people the credit of assuming that their alternative methods are effective at preventing their children from misbehaving and would not dream of saying that they must spank their child if they want it to grow up to be a useful member of adult society.

 

[punisher73]

Stimulus-response? Pffft.. That is exactly the kind of absurd theory that I have come to expect of academia; created under test conditions which are a million miles away from the reality of average homes and dispensed to parents as a panacea to all the ills of parenthood.

Plainly a child will not understand your logic if you employ the logic of an adult.

Use the logic of a child in the language of that child and the child will understand perfectly. (Assuming we are talking about a child that can speak and comprehend words)

To say a child is no better than a dog and understands nothing but a). the tone of your voice or b). a smack, is a far cry from parenthood as I have experienced it.

I guess I have gone astray in not carrying a cane and smacking his hindquarters to keep him to heel, and in not ringing a bell like Pavlov to get him to sit up and beg at eating time

Woof

The brain IS NOT WIRED YET FOR LOGIC, there is no "logic a child can understand". They can memorize Act A=Mommy/Daddy mad, but not understand the reasoning behind it on why you (generic you) is mad.

Also, how ironic to have "science" show that spanking is harmful, but then poo-poo brain development research that can show clearly that the areas of the brain wired for logic don't have the neurological connections at a very young age.

 

[punisher73]

It's nonsense to say young children can't be taught without smacking, it's far too easy to just smack a child instead of thinking how to discipline and teach without smacking. Smacking a child is laziness. it's not to do whether you talk to them or not, if they can't understand the spoken word how can they actually understand what a smacked backside is for? Fear of violence is such a good way to teach children isn't it? Children live what they learn, parent smacks them so hey it must be fine to smack other people mustn't it?

It's well understood that boys who see their father knocking his wife around will follow the same pattern and girls who see their father knocking his wife around also end up with men who knock them around, it's what they accept as normal growing up in a house where violence is used so why should smacking children be considered any differently? What actually is the difference between parents who give their children a 'good hiding' for 'their own benefit' to teach discipline etc and the man who bashes his wife around because she 'asked for it'? Violence in the home is violence full stop. A tap on the backside is still violence however much you may say it's not, adult to adult it's still assault, adult to child and 'it's for the child's good'?

Very nice logical fallacy to join that a swat on the butt is equal to domestic violence in every case.

 

[Empty Hands]

I got at the very least, a spanking every day for one thing or another. I got beaten on a regular basis. It did not hurt me. I am not a victim and my dad was not a criminal. End of discussion.

Maybe not, but do you think it was necessary? And if it was necessary, why didn't the spankings/beatings have the desired effect of changing your behavior? If you (general you) need to be punished nearly every day for something, then clearly the lesson isn't internalizing, yes?

 

[Empty Hands]

I'm not going to add much to this. However, it somewhat amuses me to see martial artists decry the use of violence, and to use such hackneyed phrases as "violence never works." We KNOW damn well that in certain situations, violence is the ONLY thing that works, to pretend otherwise, is silly.

Yeah, but the topic is discipline of children, not "certain situations." I certainly haven't seen any martial artists here or anywhere else claiming that violence is useless when you've been attacked by a mugger.

 

[granfire]

Yeah, but the topic is discipline of children, not "certain situations." I certainly haven't seen any martial artists here or anywhere else claiming that violence is useless when you've been attacked by a mugger.

well, when you deal with children you will have plenty of 'certain situations'

Are there situations that are better dealt with in a different manner? Naturally.
Are there never situations when the pop on the butt could be warranted? I doubt it.
I think many a tantrum in a store would be quickly resolves with that proverbial pop, no fuss, no muss (because those little monsters know good and well they won't get that in the store, thank you anti spanking movement)

We have gone to extremes...kids being rewarded for not behaving bad....Saw a mother with a kid today in the store, kid is maybe 4ish? Getting a toy because she didn't have a cavity...dentist visit...Yeah, I got toys for being good at the dentist: a tiny rubber animal that cost maybe 25 cents....(I do still have those and cherish them, bought many more later on) but seriously...you can hardly get a decent toy for under 10 bucks these days!

back on track though.

I think we have painted ourselves into a corner with all the expectations on how we need to raise our children.
I was expected to behave when I was a kid, maybe I never got more spankings because I saw my older sister get her butt popped when she was being a jerk - all while the parents had company!
There were few occasions when we got stuff, hardly ever anything out of turn. But really never because we did something that was expected to come naturally.

Now as a parent I find myself really struggling, because there are so many thing you are not supposed to do. Your kid falls out of a tree and breaks something, CPS is knocking on your door (extreme thought, sure)
We have become Nancy Graced: A friend lost her 9month old daughter this past may. Seemed to have been a case of SIDS....at least one detective took a notion hat they had killed her, putting them through all kinds of trouble....and while they were cleared, there are enough doubts left in the files for future reference...

The standard for our kids are now pathetically low in what is expected from them in terms of performance and behavior...
Spanking? just one more thing. Frankly I think there are some really skilled parents out there who never need to put a hand on their kids but screw them up nontheless, whit what one could only describe as mental abuse.