The Existance of Chi

[Makalakumu]

Hey, this would be a good discussion for some actual Tai Chi people to get on board. Check out this post in "the study"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12022

Reply here or in the study, I want to hear what you all think.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Phil Elmore]

Chi Power, Pyramids, and Silliness
By Phil Elmore
Reprinted from the August Subscriber Content of The Martialist

One of the perennial debates in martial arts circles can be summed up with the often-used topic title, "Is chi real?"

Chi or ki, the life force that permeates our beings, which some say can be channeled to produce physical and mental benefits, is the basis for much Eastern lore. Feng Shui, for example, is the practice of helping the chi of a given space flow freely through that space without ebbing away, wasted, or pooling up, trapped.

The eclectic martial art I study, Shanliang Li, is at its core a meditative art. One of the skills on which we focus is extending the awareness of the mind and body into the ethereal - meaning, beyond the body, to anticipate and counter strikes. My teacher David stresses very much the benefits of meditation. As a Pagan, I can relate to these concepts and to other ideas that would be considered paranormal in nature – existing outside the domain of pure logic and tapping certain subjective, emotional elements of our beings.

You may choose to believe that these things, these concepts, are literally real and physically accessible. You may choose to view them metaphorically. Chi, for example, is a superb metaphor for visualization and mental focus. That is how I tend to view it most of the time.

The benefits of positive visualization are widely known in martial arts circles. Chuck Norris, for example, in The Secret of Inner Strength and The Secret Power Within, writes of the gains he achieved through visualization of success in competition.

What we must remember, however, is that there are certain things chi cannot do. There are certain martial arts myths and silliness out there that too many people seem willing to believe. When pressed, they will retreat to illogic, claiming that "simply because science hasn't proved something doesn't mean it isn't true."

That is, one supposes, true enough – but we must maintain a sense of perspective. Science hasn't proven that there isn't a unicorn living in my closet. In the absence of credible evidence to the contrary, however, the reasonable default position is one of skepticism. If am going to assert that there is a unicorn in my closet, claiming that unbelievers render the beast invisible is not sufficient to bolster my claims or excuse my lack of proof.

Chi power cannot be focused to knock you down without touching you.

That is a fact. I challenge anyone who believes they can knock me down by focusing their chi and waving their hands at me, or perhaps by making other gestures accompanied by Sonny Chiba breathing noises, to drive to my city and do so on videotape.

No one will ever accept my challenge, because this cannot be done. This cannot be done because nobody has ever done it on an uncooperative opponent. I don't care if someone claims to have managed it, because it isn't true no matter what they say.

"What objectivity and the study of philosophy require is not an 'open mind' but an active mind – a mind able and eagerly willing to examine ideas, but to examine them critically. An active mind does not grant equal status to truth and falsehood."

- Ayn Rand

I bring this up because I've seen such claims made in the martial arts community. There are a lot of people out there who seem to think they can do a lot of posing and posturing and noisemaking and then bowl you over with the incredible power of their lifeforces. I even saw a video online from a notorious cultlike martial arts group in which people wave their hands, make funny sounds, and knock down groups of charging attackers from twenty paces. It's absurd. Yet there's no limit to what some people seem willing to believe.

I once witnessed, with my jaw dropped to my keyboard, a lengthy discussion at bladeforums.com in which countless individuals actually professed their belief that keeping one's razor blades under a pyramid would somehow magically keep those blades sharper. This mysterious "pyramid power" is not a new idea by any means, but it was as ridiculous then as it is now.

A pyramid does not possess the ability to make your razor blades sharper, preserve your dead cats, or shine and wax your apples and vegetables, respectively. It won't make your clothes brighter or your whites whiter. It's a geometrically fascinating structure that possesses no magic by itself.

Am I saying there is no such thing as magic(k)? Absolutely not. I believe very strongly in the power of the mind. I also know that no amount of focus, meditation, and energy on my part is going to violate the laws of physics or create the impossible from the unknowable.

Just when I thought I'd seen everything, I witnessed another discussion online, this one in an Aikido forum, in which the participants wondered aloud if those of great development in the martial arts are or were capable of projecting beams of light from their eyes and fingers. When I stated how flatly absurd I found this notion – people cannot shoot light from their eyes no matter how "open" their minds might be – I was told that it was terribly rude of me not to keep an open mind!

It's time we dismissed ridiculous nonsense for what it is. There are plenty of "anomalies" out there that point to gaps in our knowledge of our world, and there are things we might call "paranormal" that defy explanation. The laws of magick, however, never supersede the laws of ballistics. That's a good slogan to remember whenever you're tempted to believe the unbelievable.

No-touch knockouts do not work and do not exist. Believe in chi or don't, but don't ask unrealistic things of it.

 

[7starmantis]

I have to agree and disagree with Sharp Phils comments.
I do not believe in a supernatural force able to be conjured at will by those versed in chi power. I do however believe that it is possible to develop "chi" in your techniques that can be used to increase power and even damage of your attacks. It is nothing magic about it, but a focusing of mind, and body. I can't explain it completely because I'm not exactly sure what I think about it, I'm still researching it, but I'm researching it medically and scientifically. I have witnessed and been the recipient of a relativly soft hit that sent me across the floor a good 8 feet, so I know it exists, I just don't believe it is magical or supernatural.

7sm

 

[pete]

if you believe the body has an electrical current (the nervous system), then why wouldn't the coiling and coordinated control of that system produce an electro-magnetic force.

if you believe the body has an air current (the respiratory system), then why couldn't the proper use of breath produce the power of an air stream.

if you believe the body contains the flow of fluids (circulatory system), then why wouldn't the unicumbered flow of the bloodstream create an energy similar to a centrifugal force.

now why would these forces as the appear otherwise in nature be able to extend beyond their containers, but are constrained by human skin?

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by pete
if you believe the body has an electrical current (the nervous system), then why wouldn't the coiling and coordinated control of that system produce an electro-magnetic force.

if you believe the body has an air current (the respiratory system), then why couldn't the proper use of breath produce the power of an air stream.

if you believe the body contains the flow of fluids (circulatory system), then why wouldn't the unicumbered flow of the bloodstream create an energy similar to a centrifugal force.

now why would these forces as the appear otherwise in nature be able to extend beyond their containers, but are constrained by human skin?

Good point.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

That's spurious logic. The existence of an electrical current within your body is not synonymous with the ability to project that current beyond your body, just as the existence of atoms of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen in your body is not synonymous with the ability to produce those atoms recombined as varying molecules at will. To believe otherwise is like saying, "Of course I'm connected to the Internet. I own a modem and I own a computer. Doesn't it follow that I'm on the Internet?"

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
That's spurious logic. The existence of an electrical current within your body is not synonymous with the ability to project that current beyond your body, just as the existence of atoms of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen in your body is not synonymous with the ability to produce those atoms recombined as varying molecules at will. To believe otherwise is like saying, "Of course I'm connected to the Internet. I own a modem and I own a computer. Doesn't it follow that I'm on the Internet?"

Your body does project an electrical current, thus EKG (electrocardiogram) machines. Recombining molecules of differing atomic elements is not quite in the same boat as projecting an allready in place current.

I'm not saying you can "shock" anyone with this "current", I'm saying body mechanics play a larger roll in physics than some believe. How would you explain a soft hit, not hard enough to leave bruise, sending me (6'2" 205lbs) across the floor 8 feet? Its a usage of body mechanics and center of gravity.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

Body mechanics isn't electromagnetism, though. It's simply physics at work.

 

[pete]

then, sir, please explain the neuron transmission via synapse

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Body mechanics isn't electromagnetism, though. It's simply physics at work.

No one is saying chi is electomagnetism, that is a completely differing idea than chi being part of the electrical "current" if you will, of the body. Your muscle, if you believe it or not, are working by electric current, even if you believe they aren't they still are.

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
It's simply physics at work.

Agreed, physics is exactly what it is, but biological physics.

7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

then, sir, please explain the neuron transmission via synapse

That has nothing to do with the ridiculous pseudoscience we're discussing, such as shooting light out of your fingers.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
That has nothing to do with the ridiculous pseudoscience we're discussing, such as shooting light out of your fingers.

This is getting ridiculuous, you refuse to listen to any of what I'm saying. You stand on your own beliefs of what I'm saying and demand I'm talking of "...pseudoscience...such as shooting light out of your fingers." I specifically remember saying thats not what I'm talking about.

A serious open conversation I'm up for, a one sided pseudodiscussion I'm not. No itent to offend, just I would like to have a mutual conversation, and this is not happening.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

HEY MODS!

Could we merge these threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&threadid=12022

It's too confusing to watch both. My opinions on the subject are over there!

PAUL

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by PAUL
HEY MODS!

Could we merge these threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&threadid=12022

It's too confusing to watch both. My opinions on the subject are over there!

PAUL

I doubled up on this thread because I wanted to get the opinions from some Tai Chi practicioners. I seriously recommend checking out the other thread. Lots of good info there...

7starmantis

Do not take Phil's remarks so seriously. When they are useful reply. I would wager that he is reacting to the preponderance of silly psuedoscience in tai chi practice. Personally, I think that if we can understand chi scientifically we can all increase our ability to use the concept and make ourselves better martial artists.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
HEY MODS!

Could we merge these threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&threadid=12022

I'm not hitting anything with that url.

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
7starmantis

Do not take Phil's remarks so seriously. When they are useful reply. I would wager that he is reacting to the preponderance of silly psuedoscience in tai chi practice. Personally, I think that if we can understand chi scientifically we can all increase our ability to use the concept and make ourselves better martial artists.

I'm not taking SharpPhils comments extremely serious, its just I get irritated when people on threads refuse to accept what you are saying is different from what they think you are saying.

I truly wish we did understand Chi more scientifically, it would be great for us all. There is alot of old still in Taiji today, and it will probably remain for quite a while, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong, just because they don't understand it correctly.

7sm

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by pete
if you believe the body has an electrical current (the nervous system), then why wouldn't the coiling and coordinated control of that system produce an electro-magnetic force.

if you believe the body has an air current (the respiratory system), then why couldn't the proper use of breath produce the power of an air stream.

if you believe the body contains the flow of fluids (circulatory system), then why wouldn't the unicumbered flow of the bloodstream create an energy similar to a centrifugal force.

now why would these forces as the appear otherwise in nature be able to extend beyond their containers, but are constrained by human skin?

Well for one thing, the current that flows in your body is in the nano-amp range. Far too low to create any kind of "force". Plus the body operates as an electro-chemical mechanism, where chemicals and electricity combine to provide locomotion.

Any "coiling" or inductance would be disruptive to various organs of the body and could possibly cause death. Only if the other parts of the body were isolated from any type of induction, but again, that almost impossible because of current pathways.

Outside magnetism or current could have an effect ON the body, but not FROM the body. I only know this because I am an electrical engineer.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Ender
the body operates as an electro-chemical mechanism, where chemicals and electricity combine to provide locomotion.

While I respect your knowledge of electicity, the body is not an electro-chemical mechanism. No chemicals combine with electricity in the human body.

I understand the electrical current of the body is too low to produce a "shock" but I don't believe that chi is a "shock" or anything other than a power that can be delivered in a punch or even kick. Its nothing that really transfers from one person to the next, execpt in the form of inertia.

7sm

 

[pete]

Outside magnetism or current could have an effect ON the body, but not FROM the body. I only know this because I am an electrical engineer. - Ender

i'm not a real doctor but i do play one on tv.

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
While I respect your knowledge of electicity, the body is not an electro-chemical mechanism. No chemicals combine with electricity in the human body.

I understand the electrical current of the body is too low to produce a "shock" but I don't believe that chi is a "shock" or anything other than a power that can be delivered in a punch or even kick. Its nothing that really transfers from one person to the next, execpt in the form of inertia.

7sm

Chemicals combine to produce electricity within the body. Much like a battery. The electrical current causes cells to move, produce movement of cells to interact with other cells, or simply travel along the central nervous system. when the current travels to it's destination a reaction occurs. Much like an electric shock, your muscle will contract and spasm because the current from an outside source overloads the bodies electrical system.

Inertia has very little to do with electricity except in the form of electrons colliding when current is flowing.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Ender
Chemicals combine to produce electricity within the body. Much like a battery. The electrical current causes cells to move, produce movement of cells to interact with other cells, or simply travel along the central nervous system. when the current travels to it's destination a reaction occurs. Much like an electric shock, your muscle will contract and spasm because the current from an outside source overloads the bodies electrical system.

Inertia has very little to do with electricity except in the form of electrons colliding when current is flowing.

I know of no chemicals that combine to form any type of electrical current in the body. Would you mind telling what chemicals these are? Cell mobility has nothing to do with electrical currents. No cells pass "down" or through the Central Nervous System. Your talking on two differnet levels, the cellular level and the systemic level. Groups of cells form organs, which in turn group to form systems.

I don't believe that chi has anything to do with electricity anyway. Inertia comes into play when the "chi" or "power" or whathaveyou, is transfered from one individual to the next. Its like pushing a bowling ball. Your inertia or energy is transfered to the ball and thus moves it. What I'm saying is that you can increase the amount of energy you transfer when doing a hit or push or kick.