The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

An overview of Taiji methods of push hands (推手, Tuī Shǒu) contrasting different methods and rule sets.

太极拳实战中一个最重要的功夫，就是松沉劲。认识并训练这种功夫，才能逐渐掌握太极拳的内功。
Softness and sinking energy are essential to the practice of Tai Chi combat.
Through the cultivation of this skill, one can gradually unlock the deeper aspects of Tai Chi's internal power.

​

 

[Buka]

Softness and striking energy are essential to all things combat.

 

[Same Trick]

Yet so many frown at taijiquan training methods and only want to learn the hard way

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yet so many frown at taijiquan training methods and only want to learn the hard way

We trained concurrently in both when I started. My Sifu said we trained both to end up with Tai Chi Chuan legs and Southern gung fu arms. It’s important to be able to do both and use them interchangeably, just like I see a lot of people that only practice the Tai Chi form to the right and don’t even realize it’s important to do it to the left as well. I think most people are impatient and just want the next thing, the next technique, the next rank etc.

 

[windwalker099]

I see a lot of people that only practice the Tai Chi form to the right and don’t even realize it’s important to do it to the left as well.

In my own Taiji journey, I progressed from practicing Tung/Dong Taiji to my current practice, which is based on the teachings of my last Taiji teacher.

When learning the "Tung" style, we initially did not practice both sides. However, sometimes during practice, the Shifu would lead us in performing the solo form on the opposite side. Interestingly, no one seemed to have any issues with this adjustment.

My current Taiji practice follows a principle-based approach taught by my last teacher Master Zhang Youngliang.
In this approach, movements are used to develop and reinforce fundamental principles rather than being the ultimate goal of the practice.

Over time, the specific movements can be set aside because any movement performed becomes a natural expression of the practiced principles.

 

[isshinryuronin]

movements are used to develop and reinforce fundamental principles rather than being the ultimate goal of the practice.

Over time, the specific movements can be set aside because any movement performed becomes a natural expression of the practiced principles.

An interesting way of looking at it. I think this is a valid and useful attitude to have as one method of practice and can aid in developing the fundamental principles of various MA systems. After all, technique devoid of fundamental principles will not be effective/efficient. And, as you say, once the principles are internally ingrained, they will be outwardly reflected.

On the other hand, principles themselves are only theoretical potential needing technique to express themselves. Poor technique execution will not be able to properly translate the principles into action. And it is thru physical execution that the principles can be tested and refined and put to work! So, both are equally important and must be practiced and developed in parallel.

Technique-principles. Technique-principles. Back and forth till the parallel lines converge. IMO, this happens to a significant degree at the 2nd-3rd dan levels most of the time. Full convergence of these parallels (depending on your view of curved space) may never occur and provide a life-long journey to the martial artist.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In my own Taiji journey, I progressed from practicing Tung/Dong Taiji to my current practice, which is based on the teachings of my last Taiji teacher.

When learning the "Tung" style, we initially did not practice both sides. However, sometimes during practice, the Shifu would lead us in performing the solo form on the opposite side. Interestingly, no one seemed to have any issues with this adjustment.

My current Taiji practice follows a principle-based approach taught by my last teacher Master Zhang Youngliang.
In this approach, movements are used to develop and reinforce fundamental principles rather than being the ultimate goal of the practice.

Over time, the specific movements can be set aside because any movement performed becomes a natural expression of the practiced principles.

Agree with that second bit entirely. The forms are there to create a habit of foundational principles of movement. My analogy is music, first we learn the instrument and its parts and then we learn notes, scales, chords, rhythms, and eventually the music of others (forms). When we can create our own music spontaneously, we don’t abandon the principles, we express them with virtuous harmony.

 

[windwalker099]

On the other hand, principles themselves are only theoretical potential needing technique to express themselves. Poor technique execution will not be able to properly translate the principles into action. And it is thru physical execution that the principles can be tested and refined and put to work! So, both are equally important and must be practiced and developed in parallel.

I have gone through this process while creating my own Taiji method.

I concluded that creating a completely new method was not possible because my practice still relied on specific movements, despite the principles they embodied.

The distinction lies in whether the practice acts as a conductor of energy or as the originator of the energy. This highlights the fundamental difference between internal and external based approaches.

One is not better than the other, as all Chinese martial arts are internal by nature. However, the expression and training can be quite different based on these distinctions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

An interesting way of looking at it. I think this is a valid and useful attitude to have as one method of practice and can aid in developing the fundamental principles of various MA systems. After all, technique devoid of fundamental principles will not be effective/efficient. And, as you say, once the principles are internally ingrained, they will be outwardly reflected.

On the other hand, principles themselves are only theoretical potential needing technique to express themselves. Poor technique execution will not be able to properly translate the principles into action. And it is thru physical execution that the principles can be tested and refined and put to work! So, both are equally important and must be practiced and developed in parallel.

Technique-principles. Technique-principles. Back and forth till the parallel lines converge. IMO, this happens to a significant degree at the 2nd-3rd dan levels most of the time. Full convergence of these parallels (depending on your view of curved space) may never occur and provide a life-long journey to the martial artist.

I agree with you to an extent, principle alone only implies a higher level of practice. As you say 2nd-3rd Dan level.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In my own Taiji journey, I progressed from practicing Tung/Dong Taiji to my current practice, which is based on the teachings of my last Taiji teacher.

When learning the "Tung" style, we initially did not practice both sides. However, sometimes during practice, the Shifu would lead us in performing the solo form on the opposite side. Interestingly, no one seemed to have any issues with this adjustment.

My current Taiji practice follows a principle-based approach taught by my last teacher Master Zhang Youngliang.
In this approach, movements are used to develop and reinforce fundamental principles rather than being the ultimate goal of the practice.

Over time, the specific movements can be set aside because any movement performed becomes a natural expression of the practiced principles.

In your Tung style Solo form, how many postures are there, and how long would you typically spend to complete the form at your most common speed? I have only practiced variations of Yang style. In James Wing Woo version is 138 and average is approximately 40 minutes. In some classes Sifu would slow us to 55 minutes. Many people ( including myself ) initially had trouble learning to go left in solo form without a leader.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am currently learning YangJwingMing’s 2 man Taiji fighting set. I am enjoying it very much.

 

[windwalker099]

In your Tung style Solo form, how many postures are there, and how long would you typically spend to complete the form at your most common speed?

I stopped practicing it long ago as I moved on to other Tai Chi methods that were more suited to what I was looking for.

At the time, the gym was located in a school cafeteria in downtown Honolulu, Hawaii.
If memory serves me, I believe it took around 45 minutes to complete.

They also taught the fast sets, as well as weapon and two-man sets, along with many different types of "推手" (Tuī Shǒu) exercises.

Started the practice in search of deeper insights into my CMA practice.
Eventually, finding what I was looking for, much later, taiji as taught by my last teacher would
become my main and only practice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in performing the solo form on the opposite side.

If you train like in this video, you will never have left-right sides issue. I'm still not sure which way is better.

1. Train right side 10 time, then train left side 10 times.
2. Train right side, left side, right side, left side, ... for 20 times.

 

[windwalker099]

If you train like in this video, you will never have left-right sides issue. I'm still not sure which way is better.

1. Train right side 10 time, then train left side 10 times.
2. Train right side, left side, right side, left side, ... for 20 times.

Historically, Taiji started as a single-movement practice.
This could be considered the traditional way, based on functionality.

With the advent of modern practices, the focus has shifted more towards performance, with functionality measured through performance, and skill set 推手" (Tuī Shǒu) "
rather than application "fighting"

Modern times, a different focus.