The distaste for strength in martial arts

[Unkogami]

Speed is the first thing to do. Strength is the last.

Speed is the first thing to GO. Strength is the last.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Speed is the first thing to GO. Strength is the last.

Agree! When you are 80 years old, you may still be able to bench press 200 lb, but you can't run 100 meters within 10 seconds.

I believe jumping ability will be the first thing to go.

 

[Unkogami]

Agree! When you are 80 years old, you may still be able to bench press 200 lb, but you can't run 100 meters within 10 seconds.

I believe jumping ability will be the first thing to go.

When I'm 80, I'll be trying to bench press however much dirt is in the 6 feet above me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I'm 80, I'll be trying to bench press however much dirt is in the 6 feet above me.

My long fist teacher is 95 and still going strong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Speed is the first thing to GO. Strength is the last.

Agree! When you are 80 years old, you may still be able to bench press 200 lb, but you can't run 100 meters within 10 seconds.

I believe jumping ability will be the first thing to go.

Those can leave me so long as my joints are still in good condition.

 

[Unkogami]

My long fist teacher is 95 and still going strong.

That is great for him. When I'm 95 I'll be kicking the devil's *** in hell.

 

[Unkogami]

Those can leave me so long as my joints are still in good condition.

My joints were all but gone before I was 30.

 

[Unkogami]

Agree! When you are 80 years old, you may still be able to bench press 200 lb, but you can't run 100 meters within 10 seconds.

I believe jumping ability will be the first thing to go.

I used to be so damn fast, but I can still put 18 year olds on their knees just by putting a hand on them.

 

[Bigmoose70]

Hi. I am writing an article on the attitudes towards physical strength in martial arts, and would like to get your perspective on this issue (if it is an issue, I personally feel that it is) in martial arts, since you're all much more experienced than me. Every since I started training, I saw that there were many students and professors alike that seemed to have a sort of chip on their shoulders when it came to physical strength. I specifically noticed this in traditional martial arts; while my professors in Jiujitsu seemed to have an issue with strong people, my professors in more modern arts and combat sports seemed to lean towards it. This issue was most prevalent during my fleeting time in Shorinji Kempo, and it was one of the main reasons I quit.

People there seemed to have this sense of superiority towards me because I spend a lot of time working out at the gym and lifting weights, and many jokes and mockery and criticism by both students and senseis aside at people who spend their time training at the gym. Much of it came from the idea that using strength to fight was brutish and perhaps even a little uneducated or simply stupid. Although modern combat sports and martial arts tend to supplement (and in some cases even rely on) strength training for their techniques, this is not to say that they are bereft of such attitudes. I have come across one or two individuals that have this mentality of superiority in my BJJ gym too, and there is even the running joke amongst the online BJJ community where calling someone strong is an insult in a way, as they have no technique worthy of a compliment.

Personally however, I dislike this mentality a lot. I would even go as far as to argue that strength is a technique too - I wasn't born with my strength, and I worked a very long time to get to the level I am in terms of weightlifting today. If it just so happens that it helps me against my opponent, of course I'll use it. I think it is very important to incorporate strength training, whether traditional iron-body type stuff, or modern muscular hypertrophy and development. What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with everyone who expressed technique over strength. I learned Isshinryu in the teens(1980’s).
Currently learning for the past 20 plus years an old Wudang system. We use (my approximate guess) 30% or less strength and the rest is combination of energy and technique.
The other day I moved like Korra tha avatar learning air bending navigating through those spinning things, according to my daughter’s.

To rely on strength when 70 years old or older will not help anyone in real fight/battle.
It’s important to me is breath, be aware, relax, and move naturally. With many years of practicing almost any situation in YOUR training was introduced. Who cares who says anything negative. Be the better “practitioner” and find humility in yourself.

 

[krowe]

Athletic training is a core part of martial arts training if you want to maximize your ability to use it for fighting. It is very easy to train in a way that makes your martial arts less effective however so it is important to go about it intelligently. Like body building/bulking up a lot can get in the way of range of motion and slow you down. Because there is more weight it becomes easier for the opponent to use your own strength against you in some circumstances. Alternatively I have found strength compliments internal styles a lot. Here is what gets people stuck: use skill and energy to move. Where people mess up is when they use their strength in place of skill. Strength compliments skill because it gives you a larger stronger vessel which means more potential energy which equates to greater force and impact during strikes and grappling plus you can take more punishment. People who lack skill and rely on strength end up having poor control of their body. What it means to have good control of your Qi and energy is that you have suuuuper smooth control of how kinetic energy flows through your body and transitions across the kinetic chain. If you are good at this you are using what is referred to as internal skill. It will create the feeling of almost flowing like water which is why people who focus entirely on technique feel that muscles are bad for martial arts. What is really happening is that if you have less strength you will develop better technique because that is all you habe to rely on and if you have more strength you may accidentally begin to rely on muscle contractions in a way that produces poor technique and lack of internal skill. If you want to get stronger while retaining your internal skill you have to be careful and train your internal skill so that you can move the same way with the added weight and strength. It requires a lot more control because there is more mass. Also weight training trains your motor nerves to act differently because it is resistance training. So it will ruin your technique silently without you even realising it if you hit the gym a lot and forget to train your internal skill to adapt to your physique.
Part of why this happens is that internal skill requires the body to he relaxed and involves much more subtle and dynamic control of the body than what weight training or calisthenics usually produces. Consider how a person moves when they lift weights. Consider isometrics and even polymetrics with exercise equipment. This is a movment pattern designed to target and strengthen specific muscle groups against weighted resistance. Resistance training draws tension into the body as a side effect and the recovery phase between workouts can retain tension in the body and mess with skillful movement if you train hard. I find this more common with untrained or mediocre fighters. It becomes very easy to pull their arm and make them off balance or in a super vulnerable position. Also for part of the week your body is in suboptimal condition due to muscle recovery.
I spar against some individuals who have much more muscle than me but they lack certain skills that are more common in chinese kungfu. That, combined with their larger muscles and slower speed, make it easy for me to parry their attacks and keep control them with double jabs to the face and quick strikes to the arms and body. I strike with equal or more power than them because they have no internal skill. And am faster because my body is relaxed while they are tense. I also do strength training, but i do it correctly which puts us on a more even playing feild. So the fighters skillset and knowledge of body and movement conditioning is a factor too. I have met people with similar physiques who fare much better because of the WAY they use their strength. These people have found a way to use their added bulk effectively and retain their skill as formidible opponents. Another consideration is if you bulk up too much you need to change the way you fight and techniques to accommodate the increased strength and decreased speed. The same is true for if you prefer to stay lean and lighter on your feet. If a light and fast guy fights like a larger stronger person would they will not fare as well. So the style of fighting needs to match the way you train your body and vice versa. Its not about whether stremgth is bad or not. Strength and more importantly the neuromotor training which relates to control and precision of movement as well as regulation of kinetic force through the musculature should reflect the style of fighting you intend to use. If you blend styles or switch styles, it would be prudent to consider how you would ideally want to train your body to more effectively compliment the way you want to be able to move/attack/defend for the style of martial arts you intend to employ. Hope this was helpful.

 

[Hyoho]

Athletic training is a core part of martial arts training.

As a professional instructor teaching in Japan I would agree if is for younger people. As we mature the actual practice is most of what we require. But even that should be done to a level that brings us to our knees on a "daily" basis. I used to practice at least ten times a week. Real fighters are good because they have natural ability. We hand pick them as we watch them come up from elementary school and rise through he ranks. One can clearly separate the fighters from those that do things more as a hobby.

 

[Gyuki]

Adding on to all that has been mentioned, I have encountered various people in Martial Arts that are simply jealous. I am not a big guy by any means (I am 5'9'' and weight about 180 185 mix of fat and muscle, average joe) but have good martial sense, skills and ability.

When going for a new class or tryout with new people, it seems there are always a few (and yes sometimes the coaches) higher graded students that act jealous or unconfortable because I have a white belt on my hips but can literally destroy them in a combat situation. My kicks are strong, flexible and can be high, I am naturally a good kicker... My hand strikes are driven by core power and proper body mechanics and I have been thought as a child to not hold back during training without a partner... So I do.

The amount of technical details they come up with to "correct" my technique is always incredible. Of course I am not perfect and there are things I need to improve and want to work on. I wish to learn from certain styles to perfect MY martial art. What I mean by that is the way I fight and act in combat. I am not trying to become a copy of them and their master and those before that. It is my body and I will move it how I see fit. If I go to a Muay Thai class it seems that it is not something that they will take issue with... I don't hear oh please hit the bag less hard. When you are doing something incorrectly you are being told. And yes to correct something you need to take the power or focus behind it down and re add it when it is correct. Not to mention that most instructors in traditional martial arts are unable to make the transfer from forms to actual combat.... I have to come up with that on my own so yes correcting the "Oh you need to turn your fist exactly as its passing the other hand, not before not after" is useless to me. What is important is how I need to move my hips, arms and shoulders to generate power with as less movement as possible and once that is integrated, how to use that same technique in a fight stance while keeping the principles and concept....

Seems to me like they were the "nerdy" type of person in their high school life, got into martial arts and liked it. Became "good" in the system they learned in a historical and presentation manner. So for them when the foot is 45 degree its 45 not 43 not 44 not 46 or 47 based on wtv medical condition or discomfort one may experience from that specific stance.... I can understand and appreciate the value of historical keeping and tradition. But then again, I simply learned that these schools were not the ones for me. If the teacher is going to be intimidated by a student (who is NOT trying to intimidate anyone) who wishes to learn their style and adapt it into combative situations or add a lot more live drills or sparring. And when not mentioning those interest of mine and simply training the way they wish but with more focus or intention behind my strikes they still see it as a problem....

Strength is not a problem of it's own. It is an issue for those who do not wish to be challenged and actually progress, and as it has been mentioned before, it can hinder technique if one chooses to uses only their strength and not properly learn.

And that's the issue, I always question myself as was I using too much muscle and not enough technique or am I just actually good and ok to proceed. I like to think that most of time, I muscle my way out so I need to work more on techniques.... But then again, my technique is usually more clear, direct and with focus then most Brown Belt and even Shodan... I am really not trying to claim I am the best in the world or anything. Non TMA coaches have nothing to say or correct on my technique, they want to add more and combos and drills and simply move forward and I tell them that my strikes can still be worked on as my technique is not perfect yet. They throw me in the ring and I do prevail against others who have been at it for longer and never even bothered with technicality...

Martial arts seems to be where intellectuals and "meathead" intersect and they both seem to have issues with each other. It seems to be hard to have actual balance between both in 1 individual. Because both come with stereotypes and preconceptions as well. I would like to think I am flat in the middle but that is not true. Definitely more on the nerdy side, but nerdy for effectiveness and power if that makes sense. I sure am not a powerlifter, but am not into martial arts to be a historical re creator of the Japanese takeover of Okinawa and roleplay as one of them.... (Lots of historical inaccuracies in that statement but it's more for the effect). I want to learn to be stronger and more able to fight/ deal with self defense (even if fighting and combat are but a small part of self defense, pre and post combat is where self defense truly is at).

Thank you

 

[JowGaWolf]

So for them when the foot is 45 degree its 45 not 43 not 44 not 46 or 47 based on wtv medical condition or discomfort one may experience from that specific stance.... I can understand and appreciate the value of historical keeping and tradition.

45° is always a reference. It makes no sense that someone is going to be exactly 45° in a point. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with classmates and teachers like you experienced. People like that give people the wrong idea about the importance of technique.

The best lesson to understand the importance of technique is to simply punch a burlap heavy bag really hard. After 3 or 4 hard punches, one will soon appreciate technique. Some of you guys have met some really arrogant people in martial arts. Out of all my years in martial arts I only have 2 that stand out as a horror story, but I don't blame TMA for it. The attitude that they had was always there. They brought that to TMA, they didn't learn it from TMA. But that's how life is. Some people are just jerks.

The one thing that I enjoy most about technique is that it allows me to maximize my strength. Even strong people use proper techniques for lifting heavy boxes. If they don't they will soon realize the penalty for bad lifting technique.lol

 

[Damien]

They brought that to TMA, they didn't learn it from TMA. But that's how life is. Some people are just jerks.

Well said!

I've met a few in the MA world in my time. Sometimes there students even celebrate themselves for it. One particular teacher springs to mind who boasted about beating up another instructor about 20 years older than him, and on his website advertising his classes told a story about how he used to teach in a spare room at his work in exchange for free classes for other employees. In one person's first ever martial arts class he broke their wrist because they didn't tap out. And he called them an idiot...

People like that are everywhere, but it is a real shame when they end up in positions of authority and influence others.

More common (thankfully??) is just people that aren't very good or very good at teaching. At least they aren't hurting people, apart from maybe over training or sprains etc from poor jumping technique.

 

[Gyuki]

Well said!

I've met a few in the MA world in my time. Sometimes there students even celebrate themselves for it. One particular teacher springs to mind who boasted about beating up another instructor about 20 years older than him, and on his website advertising his classes told a story about how he used to teach in a spare room at his work in exchange for free classes for other employees. In one person's first ever martial arts class he broke their wrist because they didn't tap out. And he called them an idiot...

People like that are everywhere, but it is a real shame when they end up in positions of authority and influence others.

More common (thankfully??) is just people that aren't very good or very good at teaching. At least they aren't hurting people, apart from maybe over training or sprains etc from poor jumping technique.

On that last part. I seem to have encountered few that as you say were simply not good. And that influences the way they teach or ability to teach to people who may have natural abilitirs that makes them simply better.
And I can understand that after 5 years working on your roundhouse kick (pick whichever technique) a person who is a beginner (at least in your eyes) can achieve better results than yourself with almost no effort put into it as that person simply catches it and is able to incorporate it right away. I can understand where a jealous feeling may come from.
Being able to even recognise it is one thing. After it is about choosing on how to act about it. Does one choose to be motivated in their own practice and work harder or does one choose to take it out on the other person?

And the problem with people like that in position of authority is that they are in a position to build a culture of likeminded individuals that "require" hard work and belittle or disregard natural abilities that may make them (in their own mind) look bad.
I think my issue with unqualified teachers lies there more then anything. Stopping the progress of those who might be naturals in order to favor the cultivation of meeker individuals that follow them blindly and do not have either the knowledge, skill or ability to challenge them. Kind of the "Invincible, Untouchable Sensei" that can only teach you the right way or secret techniques after a certain level and the high rank students also do not make physical contact with anyone or accept to share those "secret" technique yet still can't move a heavy bag with a sidekick without injuring themselves... (This exemple is quite very extreme I know)

Again, I think it may simply be a question of attitude and culture and sometimes (most places at least where I live) are simply unconfortable with people that are naturally strong or just very intense in their martial practice. I understand that the average "new student" is usually more compliant and not necessairly already in a physical state that enables them to defend themselves.

Sad part is that I appreciate technique more than anything myself. All that others have mentioned is correct, technique is a strength multiplier and energy saver. And proper body posture ensures balance. Technique always needs to be worked on and refined yes, but the extent of proper technique in combat is to ensure you are able to keep a relative form/position and be as efficient as possible with your attacks and defenses. Because (and I hate to quote this as an exemple as it is a flawed argument) most pro fighters regardless of style or sport discipline DO lose composure, form and techniques when under lot of pressure. Wild punches flailing wildly is not uncommon. And these are the people who train for a living... So of course they can always be worked on more and perfected even more. But in the end is it the main component of what will help one win a fight? I don't think so. I also don't think strength is that factor either. Mentality and dedications are.

 

[Gyakuto]

Martial arts seems to be where intellectuals and "meathead" intersect and they both seem to have issues with each other. It seems to be hard to have actual balance between both in 1 individual. Because both come with stereotypes and preconceptions as well. I would like to think I am flat in the middle but that is not true. Definitely more on the nerdy side, but nerdy for effectiveness and power if that makes sense. I sure am not a powerlifter, but am not into martial arts to be a historical re creator of the Japanese takeover of Okinawa and roleplay as one of them.... (Lots of historical inaccuracies in that statement but it's more for the effect). I want to learn to be stronger and more able to fight/ deal with self defense (even if fighting and combat are but a small part of self defense, pre and post combat is where self defense truly is at).

Thank you

I think Gyuki makes a really good point here.

I have noticed an ‘anti-intellectual attitude’ in the martial arts (the pandemic has also highlighted this attitude more generally in society, but that’s another debate…). Many years ago, discussions of the technical minutiae of my art on a now defunct forum, were often met with ridiculous comments such as, “shut up and train”, “take a cement pill” (not sure what that even means) etc. Luckily there was one, articulate, lucid and high-graded practitioner on the board that directly answered my questions and by sheer good fortune, he is now my teacher and his classes are enthralling to all who attend.

Within historical Japanese Zen, there was what could be regarded as, anti-intellectualism…the disdain for study, debate, questioning etc, but this was due to the idea of experiential learning….where the practise was regarded superior to ‘ideological dissection’. I wonder if this attitude has bled over to Budo.

Could the martial arts be the one place where ‘thinkers’ are able to fully encroach upon the domain of the ‘sports jocks’? Effectively take them on at their physical game, by applying theory as well as practise. If greater power will produce greater acceleration and kinetic energy of a fist, foot or block and the source of that power is muscle tissue, then having more muscle tissue will facilitate this, perhaps to a point…but this requires empirical as well as experiential data.

 

[drop bear]

“take a cement pill” (not sure what that even means)

And harden up.

 

[Gyakuto]

And harden up.

That makes sense, but the context was -

Me: How might the timing of application of the little finger contribute to the force applied to the tsuka of the sword in kirioshori?
MA ‘Drill Sergeant’: Just take a cement pill
Me: Thank you for your useful contribution…I will consult with my physician.

 

[drop bear]

Came across this.

 

[geezer]

Speed is the first thing to do. Strength is the last.

Technique first! ....get the movement down, the structures and positioning, the energy, the flow... then add speed and power. If you really have the first part, adding in the last two will be easier.