The Difference Between a Martial Artist and a Fighter

[Zenjael]

I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read, but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.

This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.

But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.

I am not a good fighter, but I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.

But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes. Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.

I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are. But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.

I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.

I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think, for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?

 

[jks9199]

Just sayin'....

 

[Zenjael]

Noted... but don't smoke. Did you know that doctors have also found (conclusively I might add) that engaging in the martial arts can lead to brain damage?
Let's avoid red herring ad hominum fallacies, please?

I don't think any of us need to poison the well at this point.

What of the OP?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read, but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.

This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me. In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me. Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.

But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.

I am not a good fighter, but I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.

But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes. Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.

I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are. But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.

I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.

I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think, for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?

You are applying morals or guidelines that not all arts have or hold in the same level of importance.

I also think you have never really been in a "real fight". While I might say, yeah I messed that up but I got lucky and survived or that was not pretty, but it did a minimal amount of the job to allow me to get through that point to live to the end of the fight and hopefully beyond as well.

Now, please understand, being in a "real fight" has no meaning to a status as a martial artist. It actually means as a person you have lived a safe life or safer than others. This would and should be considerd a good thing.

So what is the purpose of the art? To teach how a specific culture engaged in hand to hand or with weapons combat? Or is it about self defense? Or is it about enlightenment? Is it about reaching something that specifically are trying to teach you versus reaching down deep and growing as a person to build confidence and strength of character.

What is the purpose of the school as from school to school there can be a large varation within the same organization of the same art? If you are not happy with how the school leaders are running it then find one that matches what you want. If you are happy and there is something that you do not like but can live with and want to stay as it is the best in the area, I say ok. (* Most people will nto drive more than 15 minutes out of their way to find a school maybe 30 minutes in some areas. While I and others would drive hours to get the training we wanted *).


So did the guys comments challenge you inside? Challenge how you think? or what your goals are? Or did he just no fit your views on things and you are looking to find some like minded people here to say you are right and he is wrong? I will not say either are wrong, unless you are doing something you do not want too. FInd what you like and train in it. Otherwise move on and continue training until you do find it.

 

[pgsmith]

What of the OP?

I think it shows your youth in that you worry too much about the wrong things. I also think that it shows that you think way too much about yourself.

Sorry, but you asked for opinions, and those are my opinions based upon your post.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You are applying morals or guidelines that not all arts have or hold in the same level of importance.

I also think you have never really been in a "real fight". While I might say, yeah I messed that up but I got lucky and survived or that was not pretty, but it did a minimal amount of the job to allow me to get through that point to live to the end of the fight and hopefully beyond as well.

Now, please understand, being in a "real fight" has no meaning to a status as a martial artist. It actually means as a person you have lived a safe life or safer than others. This would and should be considerd a good thing.

So what is the purpose of the art? To teach how a specific culture engaged in hand to hand or with weapons combat? Or is it about self defense? Or is it about enlightenment? Is it about reaching something that specifically are trying to teach you versus reaching down deep and growing as a person to build confidence and strength of character.

What is the purpose of the school as from school to school there can be a large varation within the same organization of the same art? If you are not happy with how the school leaders are running it then find one that matches what you want. If you are happy and there is something that you do not like but can live with and want to stay as it is the best in the area, I say ok. (* Most people will nto drive more than 15 minutes out of their way to find a school maybe 30 minutes in some areas. While I and others would drive hours to get the training we wanted *).


So did the guys comments challenge you inside? Challenge how you think? or what your goals are? Or did he just no fit your views on things and you are looking to find some like minded people here to say you are right and he is wrong? I will not say either are wrong, unless you are doing something you do not want too. FInd what you like and train in it. Otherwise move on and continue training until you do find it.

Tru Dat

 

[Steve]

Sounds like, according to the original post, the difference between a martial artist and a fighter is that for a fighter, the techniques work. I guess that's as good a definition as any.

 

[lklawson]

I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. [...] Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing,

I think I found the reason.

But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.

Well, that's what he wants out of martial arts. Can you fault him for getting better at that?

I am not a good fighter, but I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well, to justify that rank.

Sez who? Rank doesn't necessarily equate to fighting ability for most martial arts. It equates to technical ability. The only time rank equates to fighting ability is when the student has to fight (literally) in order to attain rank. Of course, that raises the whole question of what is "fighting" for which I've heard more definitions than there are grains of sand on the shore.

Overwise how else could one have been said to grow.

Not everyone does martial arts in order to "grow." Some do it for entertainment (you know, it's "fun"). Some for self defense. Some to fight. (self defense and fighting are not necessarily the same thing) Some for the "art" and expression of it. Some as an expression of their heritage. Etc.

It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.

Sorry about that. I didn't realize I was being so mean to you back then.

But what this first dan said made me begin to listen. I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes. Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.

That's because "style" means a bunch of different things to different people. You can't fault someone else for not using your definition, particularly when the definition they're using is a common one. You know, "style" means what brand of martial arts you do. Like Aikido or some variant of Kung Fu.

I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.

Then you've got some big surprises ahead of you. Your definition of "true martial artists" is a bit narrow and doesn't always match what others are thinking.

But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.

Oh, you mean MMA guys? BJJ? Boxers? Wrestlers? Combatives? RBSD? Well, to be fair, almost all of them "care" about their technique but being able to dominate in their sport of field of endeavor kinda requires that to some degree. Not looking "pretty" mind you, but "working." And, yeah, "insight" might not rank pretty high for a lot of folks.

I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.

You DO know the origin of the term "martial," right?

I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists.

Just as long as you understand that not everyone shares your definition and that their definition is just as valid as yours.

Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?

Nope. That's a philosophical choice that you have made. Not everyone agrees. Try talking to some Silat folks sometime. Bring peanut sauce and your favorite recipe for Long Pig.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Oh, you mean MMA guys? BJJ? Boxers? Wrestlers? Combatives? RBSD? Well, to be fair, almost all of them "care" about their technique but being able to dominate in their sport of field of endeavor kinda requires that to some degree. Not looking "pretty" mind you, but "working." And, yeah, "insight" might not rank pretty high for a lot of folks.

Insight into technique is VERY important, but it comes primarily from doing.

I get the feeling that, for the OP, the difference is akin to the difference between science and religion.

 

[lklawson]

I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes. Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do.

P.S.,

You might want to lighten up on this too. Back when I was doing Tang Soo Do, 30 or so years ago, there was only one kind of Tang Soo Do in the U.S., founded by Hwang Kee, and it was officially "Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do."

I still have the lapel pin.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Blindside]

Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?

Most of the historical arts were made to be used, not for navel gazing, not for perfection of character. MARTIAL: of and pertaining to war. You studied the martial arts so the next time you went to war/conflict/whatever you put the other guy in the ground and he didn't do it to you.

Would you be OK with being a bad fighter but a "good martial artist" if it meant that the next time you fought you might actually die?

 

[Aiki Lee]

Fighters fight. Martial artists study martial arts. Just cause you do martial arts doesn't mean you are a fighter, and just cuz someone is good at fighting, that doesn't make him a martial artist.
Personally, fighting ability is important to me in my martial training. I wouldn't call myself a fighter though. That word makes me think of people who compete in the ring or cage (which I don't do) or someone who gets into a lot of fights (which I also don't do.)

 

[geezer]

Forgive me if I find what you are saying a bit confusing. Take the following statements for example. Seems contradictory to me:

I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are.

I may be a crap fighter, but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists.

Another contradiction. You repeatedly talk of your many black belts and superb technical skill, as summarized in that statement above. "A phenomenal martial artist" you say. Wow. And then you add:

I am not prideful

I assume that means you are even better than you let on, but are too humble to say just how phenomenal you are.

I also re-read what you said at the beginning about it being "rare for a person to land a strike, at least a hand technique" on you. Well I watched the sparring clip of yourself you posted a while back. May I, with equal humility, suggest that with the kind of sparring you do, that's not surprising. Techniques that are "perfect" but don't work, are not perfect techniques. I'm not saying that every martial artist has to go at it like a boxer in the ring. Go as light or heavy as you and your partners want. But at least be honest with yourself. In fact before you can be humble, you have to be honest!

I suspect that's why getting owned by that guy surprised you. It shouldn't have. And I don't mean that to put you down. Heck, I get whupped all the time. And I don't like to go at it that hard either. At this point, I'm in it more for fun and fitness. I guess after all these years, I'm still not a phenomenal martial artist!

 

[frank raud]

"I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy."

I find flipping through the latest GQ to be inspirational for those times when I find myself more concerned about how I looked than the actual outcome.

 

[Cyriacus]

I will highlight the portions I believe will allow for a faster read, but what I don't of course is there to be read by whoever wants.

This began about 4 months back. I take perhaps too much pride in my handwork, and it's speed, and for the first time in a while, I was pure outclassed. This was a person who had well more than a foot and a half on me (this means nothing outside of reach), and his striking power was far stronger. Physically, he was in much better shape. In a drill, and in sparring, he definately outpunched me. It is rare for a person to land a strike, especially a hand technique on me.
In a standard sparring drill, I will allow the person to make head contact 2-3 times, when against equal or higher, I do not. Despite being vastly inexperienced comparatively(He had 6 years of boxing, and a 1st dan in kendo whereas I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years) he outfought me.

Funny that, what with all the stuff weve told you about being a jack of all trades and master of none.

Yes, I was not focusing, and yes, I was drifting because of the repetitiveness of the drill. After 10,000 times of, 'left side attack, right side block, etc, etc...' sometimes your zombie subconscious takes over. But even despite that, at 100%, fully focused and expecting everything he threw, the result would have been the same.

Probably, yeah.

But what got to me was something he said, and I apologize for not being to quote him. In his own words, he would rather be a better fighter, than someone who works on perfecting the techniques. Essentially, he'd rather be better at fighting, than at doing say the forms, or philosophical side of the arts.

Sounds like Me so far.

I am not a good fighter, but I believe with every growth in martial arts, it forces one's ability to fight, one's ability to grow as well, to justify that rank. Overwise how else could one have been said to grow. It's why when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later, and multiple rankings, I haven't had that problem in as long as I can recall.

22 year olds dont tend to get bullied.
To the bold, your definition of 'grow' is not the only definition.

But what this first dan said made me begin to listen.

So 6 years of Boxing is just a thing, but being a 1st Dan in Kendo is everything?

I know countless people who cannot name the style of their martial art (these are those who say they do WTF or ITF Tae Kwon Do as though those are the styles) or cannot differentiate between penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes. Or even worse, say they do one style, when in fact they really do another. This is notoriously commong with chung do kwan, moo duk kwan, and tang soo do. And Tae Kwon Do is by no means alone. You can watch a multitude of different aikido styles, and yet none look remotely how O-sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself. My point is this; how can one actually be skilled, an expert, a master, when they are like that? Cannot even truly nomenclate and identify what their doing.

Well, apparently You were bested by a Boxer/1st Dan in Kendo. The answer is because Skilled, Expert, and Master are subjective to the individuals intended outcome. If Your intended outcome is to be a master of Philosophy, 50 Martial Arts, Forms, and Technique, so be it. Good for You. But it isnt the only path.

I believe all true martial artists are fighters, or at least all skilled martial artists are. But I've met a lot of people who call themselves martial artists, wear a black belt, and could care a fig about their technique, form, or insight, and would rather show up on Saturday mornings and dominate.

Nothing wrong with that. A Martial Artist is someone who trains in Martial Arts. A Fighter is someone who fights competitively or otherwise regularly.
Being able to fight is a completely different term.
Also, in showing up and dominating, they are becoming better at what They want to become better at. Technique, Form, and Insight didnt help You with a Boxer/Kendoka, last I checked.

I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. While the latter may all, to some degree be the former, I consider it a loss, in terms of my artistic ability, if I triumphed in a confrontation, but was sloppy.

"I believe all true martial artists are fighters"
"I just thought I'd share that I think that there is a difference between a fighter and a martial artist."
Whatevs, Ill roll with it.

Thats Your opinion/belief. Do not let it bleed over to others. If thats how You feel about 'artistic ability', go for it. But dont expect everyone else to follow.
Personally, i think if its so difficult to not be sloppy, your techniques are needlessly complicated.

I may be a crap fighter,

Ok.

but I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists. I am not prideful of that as much as some would think,

I consider myself a phenomenal martial artists...
I am not prideful.

Interesting!

If thats how you consider yourself, swell. But again, your standards are not universal.

for there are always other things I have to learn and grow in, and always others who are far superior to me, no matter my place. I say that with humility; but I would rather be a martial artist, than a fighter. Does not the artist practice his art to perfection, so he may never have to use it?

To the Bold, by YOUR standard, yes. Some others may share that standard. Some others will NOT.
To the Red, that is what this boils down to. YOU would rather be a Martial Artist than someone who trains to fight.
So be it - Now embrace those who choose to train to fight, and 'grow'.

 

[jks9199]

Remo Williams: Chiun, you're incredible!
Chiun: No, I am better than that.

H'mm...

Remo Williams: You're incorrigible, Chiun.
Chiun: No, I'm better than than.

H'mm again...

Little hint... You want people to take you seriously, show us some form of actual understanding and willingness to learn. If you have 8 versions of a custard containing pumpkin, cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg, ginger, and other seasonings, baked in a pie shell... You still only have 8 pumpkin pies. Training in various forms of one art is still the working on the same basic principles.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Alex... you're back...

Are you ready to answer my questions now? The ones you keep dodging?

Can you explain to us how you managed to keep fighting with a flail chest, after your ribs were "shattered" in a sparring match? Flail chests pretty much always require chest tubes, intubation, positive pressure ventilation, and treatment for the inevitable ARDS.
Can you explain to us how your father (supposedly a physician) "set" your ribs to allow you to keep fighting? (Ribs cannot be "set" like this - in the rare case that reduction of rib fractures is needed, it's done surgically with plates/screws.)

Or are you going to dodge the questions again?

 

[Zenjael]

Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence.

PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you.

You can attack me, or be mature and move on. Your choice, you're essentially talking to yourself each time you ask. Have fun playing with yourself in that regard.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

How come every time I come back tot his site, Zenjael posts something that turns the whole world by storm? Do you wait for my posts before you post your own or something? (not a serious question, just thats how it seems haha, no its not actually the case...i think...:lookie

 

[lklawson]

I have dan's in a multitude of arts ranging almost 20 years [...] when I was 6 I was picked on mercilessly. 16 years later

Wait a tic... You've been doing martial arts since you were 2?

It's all adding up.