The Destroyer Style

About the folding chair: someone in a wheelchair might be able to wield one.
However, an attacker can grab it and then what? The man in the wheelchair cannot move his wheelchair since he has both hands on the folding chair. Thus he can easily be turned around, or the chair twisted out of his hands if he puts one hand on his wheels.

From that position, if the attacker has a machete, he can hack into the wheelchair person from various angles (including the legs), all with the wheel chair person unable to defend himself. Grabbing a folding chair is probably one of the most useless things he could do. He already misses the use of his legs, and now he lost the use of his arms as well.

In my unqualified opinion, the best thing to do is for him to keep his hands free so that he can at least do something, and perhaps use a knife of his own. I could be wrong but so can you. You won't know until you've strapped yourself in a wheelchair, strapped your legs so that you can't move them an inch or use them to brace yourself. And if you do that, I am willing to bet that the folding chair is not going to do you any good and that you are going to want either the use of your hands, or a small single handed weapon.

This folding chair idea is nothing more than an idea that has never been tested -for real- and it is dangerous to teach to others if you have no clue about the effectiveness for that situation.
 
On the topic of a wheelchair

It would seem to me that in order to use any large weapon effectively, and I will go with a folding chair since it is what is being talked about, from a wheel chair you would need to also be able to root and that would require putting on the brakes and seriously limiting ones already limited ability. Otherwise many of the strikes would send you rolling one way or the other, basic physics "''To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction". But then never having to fight from a wheelchair I could be way off on that.

There are Martial Artists out there that are confined to wheelchairs and maybe it would help to find them and talk to them about this.
 
My best friend Tony's in a wheelchair, he does aikido and it works fine for him. His sensei has taught other people with limited mobility over the years, in fact tony was introduced to the school when we went to a Slayer show and a guy backstage with one leg gave him a card. To the point of elbow strikes and many strikes in general, they don't work, the farthest his arms go back are to the same place his back leans against the chair so his tech has to do mostly with forward and lateral strikes and defense. Nor does he use weapons, because if his hands can't move then he can't move. Also, one of the armrests in his chair is not screwed in so he can pull that put and wield it like an L shaped club (holding the padded part).
 
Omar B said:
My best friend Tony's in a wheelchair, he does aikido and it works fine for him. His sensei has taught other people with limited mobility over the years, in fact tony was introduced to the school when we went to a Slayer show and a guy backstage with one leg gave him a card. To the point of elbow strikes and many strikes in general, they don't work, the farthest his arms go back are to the same place his back leans against the chair so his tech has to do mostly with forward and lateral strikes and defense. Nor does he use weapons, because if his hands can't move then he can't move. Also, one of the armrests in his chair is not screwed in so he can pull that put and wield it like an L shaped club (holding the padded part).
Click to expand...


Ok I've been rsisting this but can't any longer........whats a 'Slayer show'?
 
MJS said:
Cody,

I'm not going to go into too much detail with my reply, as Chris already did a great job. :) Just a few things....

Again, I think you're missing a few things that we're all trying to say here. There is so much more than just saying, "I'll pick something up and use it." On the surface, yes, it seems pretty easy, but as its already been pointed out, a) we need to take into consideration exactly what the person in the wheelchair can/can't do, due to their limited mobility and b) environment will also dictate what we can/can't use as a weapon.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think it depends on each persons abilities, what they would be able to do with a weapon. I'm hoping that they will also get strong enough to do it, if not already. I also don't want it to seem like this is a must. If someone has only one arm it would be hard for them to do it. I am thinking of someone who does have active use of their arms with this.
 
Bruno@MT said:
About the folding chair: someone in a wheelchair might be able to wield one.
However, an attacker can grab it and then what? The man in the wheelchair cannot move his wheelchair since he has both hands on the folding chair. Thus he can easily be turned around, or the chair twisted out of his hands if he puts one hand on his wheels.

From that position, if the attacker has a machete, he can hack into the wheelchair person from various angles (including the legs), all with the wheel chair person unable to defend himself. Grabbing a folding chair is probably one of the most useless things he could do. He already misses the use of his legs, and now he lost the use of his arms as well.

In my unqualified opinion, the best thing to do is for him to keep his hands free so that he can at least do something, and perhaps use a knife of his own. I could be wrong but so can you. You won't know until you've strapped yourself in a wheelchair, strapped your legs so that you can't move them an inch or use them to brace yourself. And if you do that, I am willing to bet that the folding chair is not going to do you any good and that you are going to want either the use of your hands, or a small single handed weapon.

This folding chair idea is nothing more than an idea that has never been tested -for real- and it is dangerous to teach to others if you have no clue about the effectiveness for that situation.
Click to expand...

It is an idea. I have not even ran it passed anyone to try and do it yet. I don't see how it could be usless to pick it up. I would much rather let the blade hit the chair then my body. For the matter of grabbing the chair, the same question could be asked about an arm. Thats the point in giving it technique so it is harder to pull away. If you just swing a chair at someone wild its gonna do less damage then having a plan with it. Control of the wheel chair is needed. I don't think of a chair in the same light as everyone else though or any other random object for that matter. I will try to get my hands on a wheelchair to make something effective and worth while as soon as can.
 
Hi Cody,

Well, I had a look at your seated techniques as you asked, and you were after feedback, so here you are:

Honestly, there are a couple of decent movements, but there are still a few issues to get over. For one thing, you are using a fair amount of arm strength, so if these are to be used for the smaller/weaker individuals, it needs work. I am also not convinced of the applicability of a number of these techniques, as they don't appear to be tested at all. Your attacker (partner) is still missing you, has no guard, is pulling away, is providing no follow-up action, and such is providing an unrealistic image of effectiveness for you and your techniques.

There are also a few techniques in there which seem to be just completely pointless (to be blunt). The one where you sweep his arm around, and end holding the back of his head comes immediately to mind. There is no control there at all, and he is not being held by anything other than his belief that he is meant to be held.

You also rely fairly exclusively on elbows. Now, as you are pulling the attackers limb into the elbow strike, that's actually not a bad concept (but you really need to have that pressure tested, the way you're showing it here probably wouldn't work, as you are not taking into account the continuing action of the opponent). However, in a number of cases you are needing to over-reach for the elbow, and in others it is hitting poorly chosen targets, and with limited force.

Really, the big question we have had is why do you feel you are in a position to create a new system, and we haven't heard an answer to that yet. There still isn't anything here that warrants being called a new system (in fact, this comes across as a range of techniques that you are happy with, and you like, but is not a true system in that it has no common base to work off), and you have openly admitted that your own experience is lacking. You have said that you are looking into other schools, that is great. As said, you will probably find that most of what you are coming up with already exists in a number of established systems, and more experience will assist you in knowing what is real, and what isn't.

But to add to your history lesson, Krav Maga is an Israeli military system, originally based on Shotokan karate, but modified to suit the needs of the Israeli armed forces. Systema has presented a number of different histories over the last few decades, originally it was said that it was a modern re-creation taking as it's source various Russian and Slavic traditions, and later it began to talk about a history reaching back centuries.

So again, while I appreciate where you are coming from, the best thing is to join a school. You do appear to have a good natural feel for things, so you'll probably do well, but you still need an instructor to help guide you through things and correct when you are off-track. But if you are going to continue with the videos, do some slow motion, it'll be easier for people to see exactly what you are doing (like when you were "pushing the attackers head back" and I thought you were hitting his ears or jaw).
 
Chris Parker said:
Hi Cody,

Well, I had a look at your seated techniques as you asked, and you were after feedback, so here you are:

Honestly, there are a couple of decent movements, but there are still a few issues to get over. For one thing, you are using a fair amount of arm strength, so if these are to be used for the smaller/weaker individuals, it needs work. I am also not convinced of the applicability of a number of these techniques, as they don't appear to be tested at all. Your attacker (partner) is still missing you, has no guard, is pulling away, is providing no follow-up action, and such is providing an unrealistic image of effectiveness for you and your techniques.

There are also a few techniques in there which seem to be just completely pointless (to be blunt). The one where you sweep his arm around, and end holding the back of his head comes immediately to mind. There is no control there at all, and he is not being held by anything other than his belief that he is meant to be held.

You also rely fairly exclusively on elbows. Now, as you are pulling the attackers limb into the elbow strike, that's actually not a bad concept (but you really need to have that pressure tested, the way you're showing it here probably wouldn't work, as you are not taking into account the continuing action of the opponent). However, in a number of cases you are needing to over-reach for the elbow, and in others it is hitting poorly chosen targets, and with limited force.

Really, the big question we have had is why do you feel you are in a position to create a new system, and we haven't heard an answer to that yet. There still isn't anything here that warrants being called a new system (in fact, this comes across as a range of techniques that you are happy with, and you like, but is not a true system in that it has no common base to work off), and you have openly admitted that your own experience is lacking. You have said that you are looking into other schools, that is great. As said, you will probably find that most of what you are coming up with already exists in a number of established systems, and more experience will assist you in knowing what is real, and what isn't.

But to add to your history lesson, Krav Maga is an Israeli military system, originally based on Shotokan karate, but modified to suit the needs of the Israeli armed forces. Systema has presented a number of different histories over the last few decades, originally it was said that it was a modern re-creation taking as it's source various Russian and Slavic traditions, and later it began to talk about a history reaching back centuries.

So again, while I appreciate where you are coming from, the best thing is to join a school. You do appear to have a good natural feel for things, so you'll probably do well, but you still need an instructor to help guide you through things and correct when you are off-track. But if you are going to continue with the videos, do some slow motion, it'll be easier for people to see exactly what you are doing (like when you were "pushing the attackers head back" and I thought you were hitting his ears or jaw).
Click to expand...



Wich of those fighting styles do you think would adapt the best for someone who has a lack of strength? I think they both seem pretty awsome. I did this video mainly for the elbow strikes, I know alot of time to I felt like he should swing twice and he was worried about hitting me. I was also wandering how does a military system work? How do you become certified in something like that? When a civilian learns it do they give them belts? Sorry I know thats alot of questions, but I figured I wanted to find out as much as I could about it. I will put slow motion on the next things I do. I was just pressed for time with the last one. I don't know why, but slow motion takes a while to upload.



Thanks Cody
 
You do know that being an uncertified teacher without proper certificates or insurance you are just asking to get sued to holy hell right? After all, it's not a matter or if, but when it'll happen and since you are talking about teaching the disabled without any studies in anything dealing with that it's gonna look really bad. Especially with an 8 page thread of people telling you that you should go get trained. Things like this thread are easy to find and your unwillingness to listen to more experienced martial artists is putting your "students" in real danger.
 
First of all, to answer your military "style" questions...

In terms of military styles, for the US military, you have Army Combatives and MCMAP. MCMAP, does have "belts" which show your progression, but is pretty limited to the Marines. It is tough to find a class that is teaching the true MCMAP style outside of the corps. Army Combatives is just a loose combination of good techniques, particularly those that work well in full gear. You can find a very solid overview of both styles in the respective services Field Manuals and published guidances.

As for the foreign military styles, Krav Maga for example, you can certainly learn a version of it at a local Krav Maga school, but as much as they like to tout themselves as being the authentic version, there is simply no comparison to getting the real israeli training. The Israeli army has basically been at war for its entire existence and they train seriously. You will learn some of the techniques from a local school, but the belts, ranks, uniforms, etc, depend on the organization and it's "marketability." Traditionally, Krav Maga has no uniform or rank. I don't know much about Systema.


A few more thoughts...First off, I think that you would get a great deal of benefit from finding a trained martial artist to be your training partner. No offense to your friend, but it doesn't appear that he has any training whatsoever. You need someone who knows how to attack, how to resist, and how to adjust YOUR techniques. Also, a higher ranked martial artist has a wider range of techniques and will have a better idea of the kinds of things that a true attacker may react with.

Second, have you considered enlisting some help? It seems to me that you have made up your mind about starting this style - despite the advice of basically everyone here. Don't get me wrong, you have very noble intentions and your heart is in the right place, you just need more experience and training before undergoing such an endeavor. So, if you must go forward with this, find a true martial arts instructor, possibly even one in a wheelchair to help. Or, how about a few disables people who do have some formal training. At this point, you are speculating on what you think is possible, completely ignoring the vast range of mobility and capabilities of the "handicapped." Depending on the type of handicap, it could be anything. The problem is...putting together a formal system requires some level of predictability and formality, not "Well, I'll figure something out once I know what they can and can't do."
 
Omar B said:
You do know that being an uncertified teacher without proper certificates or insurance you are just asking to get sued to holy hell right? After all, it's not a matter or if, but when it'll happen and since you are talking about teaching the disabled without any studies in anything dealing with that it's gonna look really bad. Especially with an 8 page thread of people telling you that you should go get trained. Things like this thread are easy to find and your unwillingness to listen to more experienced martial artists is putting your "students" in real danger.
Click to expand...

Wow you must not have read everything I have said. (I am trying to find a school to teach me). If wasn't listening I wouldn't be speaking to them now to find something that will help. I appreciate your concern, but wish you would read what is said before you comment. I don't have students, I just give advice when someone asks me. I don't put on an act for them either. I tell them I don't know all the answers, only what has worked for me.
 
MBuzzy said:
First of all, to answer your military "style" questions...

In terms of military styles, for the US military, you have Army Combatives and MCMAP. MCMAP, does have "belts" which show your progression, but is pretty limited to the Marines. It is tough to find a class that is teaching the true MCMAP style outside of the corps. Army Combatives is just a loose combination of good techniques, particularly those that work well in full gear. You can find a very solid overview of both styles in the respective services Field Manuals and published guidances.

As for the foreign military styles, Krav Maga for example, you can certainly learn a version of it at a local Krav Maga school, but as much as they like to tout themselves as being the authentic version, there is simply no comparison to getting the real israeli training. The Israeli army has basically been at war for its entire existence and they train seriously. You will learn some of the techniques from a local school, but the belts, ranks, uniforms, etc, depend on the organization and it's "marketability." Traditionally, Krav Maga has no uniform or rank. I don't know much about Systema.


A few more thoughts...First off, I think that you would get a great deal of benefit from finding a trained martial artist to be your training partner. No offense to your friend, but it doesn't appear that he has any training whatsoever. You need someone who knows how to attack, how to resist, and how to adjust YOUR techniques. Also, a higher ranked martial artist has a wider range of techniques and will have a better idea of the kinds of things that a true attacker may react with.

Second, have you considered enlisting some help? It seems to me that you have made up your mind about starting this style - despite the advice of basically everyone here. Don't get me wrong, you have very noble intentions and your heart is in the right place, you just need more experience and training before undergoing such an endeavor. So, if you must go forward with this, find a true martial arts instructor, possibly even one in a wheelchair to help. Or, how about a few disables people who do have some formal training. At this point, you are speculating on what you think is possible, completely ignoring the vast range of mobility and capabilities of the "handicapped." Depending on the type of handicap, it could be anything. The problem is...putting together a formal system requires some level of predictability and formality, not "Well, I'll figure something out once I know what they can and can't do."
Click to expand...


Thank you for the information. I am sorry you thought I was still trying to start my own style. I thought I had said I wanted to wait until I had more expierience. I am deffinately going to start one of my own, after I have more knowledge. I do thin it is possible to make something that will work for everyone, but I think you have to personalize it for them. I don't want a formal system. I want something that each person can use in their own way. If you had a student that did not have the use of an arm. You would have to show him how to block and strike with it at the same time. When you have both arms you can block with one arm while attacking with the other. That gives him different ways of attacking that a one armed man would not. Grappling with one arm would kind of be a danger zone if a second swing was coming and you didn't have another arm to block with.

It is reasons like this that I feel a one on one base is needed for teaching. I know sometimes that almost impossible with large classes, but I feel the person learning would gain more that way. That is something I would also like to do. It may take hours of work, but in order to really help someone I think it would go a long way to work with them myself instead of having a huge class. Maybe four to six people at one session. I'm sure alot of people already teach this way. I don't think it will make you rich or famous, but something modest would help people more then a huge thirthy person class at once.

I do think if you have people you trust to help train that it helps alot, but is not the same. If I can't make a personal connection with someone I don't think I will understand what they need to take from something I could teach them. Some people need physical protection, some confedence, some just want to be stronger. I think its important to know
what they really need.

Thank you again for your information
Cody
 
The Destroyer Style said:
Wow you must not have read everything I have said. (I am trying to find a school to teach me). If wasn't listening I wouldn't be speaking to them now to find something that will help. I appreciate your concern, but wish you would read what is said before you comment. I don't have students, I just give advice when someone asks me. I don't put on an act for them either. I tell them I don't know all the answers, only what has worked for me.
Click to expand...
How do they know to ask you? What makes them come to you?

I feel like I'm really beating a dead horse down here... You clearly are fit. Your heart is in the right place. Your goal is very laudable.

But right now, you're in the position of a guy who's watched ER, Grey's Anatomy, and House trying to practice medicine. Or a guy who played Pop Warner football trying to match up against an NFL player... You lack the background, and the underlying structure to know what you're doing.

It's not glamorous or glorious... but you can spend some time working within a formal style's framework, and doing the research into the physiology and kinesiology as well as the threats involved, and develop something of your own down the road. Even Bruce Lee started with formal training -- and, even after moving onto his formless jeet kun do, continued to seek training and information from skilled coaches and instructors in many styles.
 
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