The Destroyer Style

[The Destroyer Style]

Oh, and you bringing up being rich and famous is interesting... as I have said, this all comes across to me as an exercise in ego.






Its kind of an inside joke between me and my friends. They tell me that something like that won't amount to much, but I tell them getting a cage might end in death. I would rather be poor and alive then rich and dead. Not saying that they really will die. Its just something we joke about.

 

[The Destroyer Style]

I've heard a similar story about disarming a perp only to put the weapon right back in their hand. Disarming drills take A *TON* of practice to be even *remotely* effective and it usually goes something like this:

Opponent attacks with weapon
Officer defends and disarms
*repeat* <----this is where the officer would put the weapon back in the opponent's hand before the drill starts again

The drill is repeated again and again with increasing speed and intensity since ... you know, disarming drills take a TON of practice to be even remotely effective.

And in the field officers were getting hurt or worse doing as they trained - disarming and ... returning the weapon to the perp immediately.

These are not untrained people to be sure and they certainly have faced more than the average citizen is likely to face, so it's no joke.

:asian:

Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?

 

[jks9199]

I see now, you mean that because of what they were did learn it killed them. They reacted only in that one way, because that was what they were used to. Its because what they were shown didn't cover a real life or death situation they died. I see your point now. I deffinately don't want that kind of result from anything. Thats why you guys have been saying even if they don't know anything it could do more harm then good. I'm sorry I have mis under stood your concerns. If I cause someon to react a certain way only it might get them killed.

I guess I kind of thought because I would react differently, that they would to. What you told me proves that a commen since thing to one person isn't to the rest. Is this the Hollywood fire fight wou are talking about? I was just wandering. I will stop trying to help people. I deffinately don't want something of that nature to happen to my friends. Why do you think they did that? Didn't they know they were in danger? Why didn't they instinctively know? I don't understand why they would waste time on that.

Dude, you really need to take some time when you write. This is almost impenetrably badly written.

No, it wasn't the North Hollywood shootout; in fact, the North Hollywood incident demonstrated how well some of the lessons learned in this one had been taken to heart. The shootout I'm referring to occurred between several FBI agents and two robbery suspects in Miami, FL, in 1986.

You asked why they'd do that; it's simple. We do as we practice. Think back to high school; did you ever go to the wrong classroom (or at least start towards it) at the start of a new semester because you went back to the class from the last semester? Their training had primarily consisted of going to the range, executing courses of fire. I don't know if you shoot -- but picking up brass, whether revolver or pistol, is one of the least fun parts of it. There's no easy way to do it other than getting down, and picking it up. And it takes time. Nobody likes it... so it's easy to understand trying to make it easier and quicker. I'm sure they told themselves "this is just a range thing..." Unfortunately, those habits and trained practices carry over under pressure. Under pressure, our mind and body reach for the easiest way to accomplish a goal; if there's one that you've practiced and done a lot, it's going to do that -- even if it's not the best choice. Chris Parker can probably break the mechanism down better -- but this is the way I see it. Have you ever watched water run down a hill? At first, it's slow as it picks its way around stuff, finding the easiest way to go down. But as it passes, it carves a channel and it moves faster. And if you dump water down that hill after the channel's been carved -- it's going to run down the channel, much faster. Training is like the initial carving of the channel; you wear a route through your nerves and muscles, and then, under pressure, the "quickest route" is chosen -- the one you've practiced.

 

[jks9199]

Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?

Yes.

Or they helped the guy up after throwing him to the ground. Because when they practiced, they helped their partner get up.

 

[Tez3]

What makes a deadly fighter isn't training or techniques, it's something inside that enables you to kill. Whether it's to defend yourself or to be a criminal there is something almost like a switch that you can flip on that enables you to be ruthless when fighting. A whole new thread could be made on what flicks that switch ie a mother defending her child, a man defending his family, a ruthless criminal etc etc whatever but it's not a style or technique that makes you deadly.
An MMA fighter can be every bit as deadly as anyone else under the right circumstances, his/her training doesn't come into it, as I've said many times MMA is a sport, most fighters I know have a core style mostly TMAs (few of our fighters have ever done boxing, it's nearly always karate, TKD or MT. I know a couple of CMA guys too), we don't do MMA to learn to kill people but to compete so MMA is probably best left out when considering SD, it has it's uses in that you do learn to take punches, kicks etc and to think quickly. It doesn't take much to adapt techniques for SD and no fighters aren't hampered by thinking they have to stick to rules when defending themselves outside of competitions! ( thats the usual comment...MMA fighters always think they are in the ring/cage!)
We train specifically for an named and equally matched opponent, we train things like getting up from being up against the ropes/cage. We train to use the ropes/cage itself, depending too on how soft the cage is ( some cages have cord, others are like wire). We train to outwit your opponent.
MMA is physical chess, thats the fun of it, matching your skill, techniques and wits against an opponent. It's a game, defending yourself against an attack isn't. After a fight you will find the fighters swapping techniques, experiences and probably heading towards the bar to buy each other a drink, that another part of the fun.
At our club MMA and SD are taught separately, there are overlapping techniques of course and the fitness and ability to grasp techniques quickly that most MMA and indeed TMA practitioners have is very useful.
I don't know any fighter though that likes fighting with someone of a higher ability, that wouldn't be fair. Training with someone who's better, oh yes, every time!

 

[shesulsa]

Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?

YES. That's what I mean when I said:

And in the field officers were getting hurt or worse doing as they trained - disarming and ... returning the weapon to the perp immediately.

 

[jks9199]

Sorry, Tez, but MMA isn't physical chess. THIS is physical chess!
[yt]fWUuQhX6rHY[/yt]

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

On a serious note -- you make a great point about mindset!

 

[Tez3]

What on earth will they think of next lol!

 

[theletch1]

YES. That's what I mean when I said:

We've had several threads in the past on exactly this subject. You MUST train until what you're doing is instinctive. That means you don't have to think about what you're doing... it just happens. Unfortunately, any flaw that you have in your training, like handing the weapon back as Shesulsa said or pausing after you've finished a particular technique or even just helping your training partner up off of the floor, will translate into how you actually fight.

 

[morph4me]

I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.

It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style.

Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.

You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.

 

[Tez3]

I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.

It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style.

Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.

You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.

We must be horrible to train with, when someone yelps with pain we grin....and don't let go. Our instructor insists on immobilising the attacker and we learn to do the recovery position just for that reason!

 

[morph4me]

We must be horrible to train with, when someone yelps with pain we grin....and don't let go. Our instructor insists on immobilising the attacker and we learn to do the recovery position just for that reason!

I let up on the pain, but not the control, until I deem it safe to do so, even in training.

 

[Omar B]

I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.

It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style.

Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.

You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.

This is why it takes many years to earn a black belt and a couple more to be a 3rd degree. You don't get your own dojo before that point because it takes years of practice, study and work with your seniors to get all the concepts involved and how to transmit them.

When I talked about styles being cobbled together and I specifically said combatives he still took that to mean MMA which are polar opposites but he doesn't get that. But anyways, lacking a unified philosophy in your style is like what's going on with Kimbo. Great fighter against people untrained or less trained than him with the training here and there, but against a smaller karateka he folded in seconds (literally).

Why is it every person who doesn't know a thing about martial arts always bring up MMA even when it was not mentioned by the way? After all, we are talking about self defense that he wishes to gear towards the disabled. So able bodied men in a ring on a perfect surface with rules, refs, time limits, breaks to confer with coaches, protective gear and perfect lighting conditions. This compares how to the real world where you never know in advance, its usually on a rough/hard surface, there are no rules, you rarely ever see your opponent before the actual attack, you are not wearing your fighting gear, etc ... oh, and you are physically disabled.

 

[theletch1]

I let up on the pain, but not the control, until I deem it safe to do so, even in training.

I can attest to that! Tom has a way of "clicking" halfway between full on street level mindset and calm teacher at need. We have got to get back together for some training when I'm done with school, my friend.

We recently had a new student in the dojo that insisted that it was just rude not to help uke up after throwing them. I gave her uke a look that said "Explain to her where the mistake in that mindset is, please". The next time she threw him she put her hand out to help him up and found herself mounted with him simulating devastating punches to her head. She stopped helping folks up after that... and that societal training to always be courteous is fodder for another thread in and of itself.

 

[theletch1]

Why is it every person who doesn't know a thing about martial arts always bring up MMA even when it was not mentioned by the way? After all, we are talking about self defense that he wishes to gear towards the disabled. So able bodied men in a ring on a perfect surface with rules, refs, time limits, breaks to confer with coaches, protective gear and perfect lighting conditions. This compares how to the real world where you never know in advance, its usually on a rough/hard surface, there are no rules, you rarely ever see your opponent before the actual attack, you are not wearing your fighting gear, etc ... oh, and you are physically disabled.

You answered your own question. Doesn't know a thing. When one doesn't understand even the rudiments of what's going on it's easy to misconstrue even the most obvious (to the trained) concepts as being alike when they may well be worlds apart. The same thing can happen between trained practitioners of different arts that haven't taken the time to research other styles/sub-styles. Many folks don't understand that there's a difference between sport and traditional TKD. Many don't see a difference in the various styles of aikido and so on. It's a matter of what's visible to the masses. MMA is all over the television right now and mixed martial arts is what they clue in on. It never occurs to them that what they are seeing is something tailored to the sporting arena.

 

[Tez3]

I can attest to that! Tom has a way of "clicking" halfway between full on street level mindset and calm teacher at need. We have got to get back together for some training when I'm done with school, my friend.

We recently had a new student in the dojo that insisted that it was just rude not to help uke up after throwing them. I gave her uke a look that said "Explain to her where the mistake in that mindset is, please". The next time she threw him she put her hand out to help him up and found herself mounted with him simulating devastating punches to her head. She stopped helping folks up after that... and that societal training to always be courteous is fodder for another thread in and of itself.

The way our instructor teaches, the uke's landing isn't the end of the technique, there's always a couple of more moves after that. It's alright after that to help them up, they tend to need it. If he 'helps' someone up straight after he's thrown them it's because he's going to do something with them, such as a compliance hold to march them off/throw them out etc.
Some people find it odd that in the MMA class we only put techniques on till you can feel them, then you tap, we don't see the point in getting hurt in training but in the SD class (the same people usually) we are quite robust about techniques. One of the things my instructor says is that to have confidence the techniques work you do need to feel some of the pain yourself, not all obviously! It works for me, especially with some of the Aiki type moves as they never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone. As a female I have to know that stuff works on the big guys so bless them they grit their teeth while I find out. We really don't go overboard on ukes though, honest!

 

[theletch1]

The way our instructor teaches, the uke's landing isn't the end of the technique, there's always a couple of more moves after that. It's alright after that to help them up, they tend to need it. If he 'helps' someone up straight after he's thrown them it's because he's going to do something with them, such as a compliance hold to march them off/throw them out etc.
Some people find it odd that in the MMA class we only put techniques on till you can feel them, then you tap, we don't see the point in getting hurt in training but in the SD class (the same people usually) we are quite robust about techniques. One of the things my instructor says is that to have confidence the techniques work you do need to feel some of the pain yourself, not all obviously! It works for me, especially with some of the Aiki type moves as they never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone. As a female I have to know that stuff works on the big guys so bless them they grit their teeth while I find out. We really don't go overboard on ukes though, honest!

Har! I've broken me uke. Bring me another!

The aiki type things that never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone is exactly the sort of thing that I was getting at in the latter part of my post. There are so many subtletees to the martial arts that even trained MAist in another style can't always figure out what's going on so can we really blame some one with no training for making a grander mistake? I have to say that this thread has had the potential for getting very nasty and I'm impressed that everyone here has shown a level of restraint when offering advice. So, too, should the OP be applauded for being mature enough to come to the realization that he still doesn't know more than he knows and realizing that folks here have his best interest in mind. :asian:

 

[Omar B]

You answered your own question. Doesn't know a thing. When one doesn't understand even the rudiments of what's going on it's easy to misconstrue even the most obvious (to the trained) concepts as being alike when they may well be worlds apart. The same thing can happen between trained practitioners of different arts that haven't taken the time to research other styles/sub-styles. Many folks don't understand that there's a difference between sport and traditional TKD. Many don't see a difference in the various styles of aikido and so on. It's a matter of what's visible to the masses. MMA is all over the television right now and mixed martial arts is what they clue in on. It never occurs to them that what they are seeing is something tailored to the sporting arena.

Seems to be one way to get a straight answer in this thread, provide your own! I guess something being on TV makes everyone an expert. But that I can understand, I've got pretty high opinions of my thoughts on football.

Ok, gotta be at the dojo at 4:00. Be back 7:00ish.

 

[Tez3]

Seems to be one way to get a straight answer in this thread, provide your own! I guess something being on TV makes everyone an expert. But that I can understand, I've got pretty high opinions of my thoughts on football.

Ok, gotta be at the dojo at 4:00. Be back 7:00ish.

You have high opinions of yourself on AMERICAN football not the one and only beautiful game...... football!!

 

[Omar B]

I meant both. I'm a fan of both. Oh, how you feel about Rooney being made captain btw? I like that dude's aggression out there.

I know you guys call soccer/football "the beautiful game." But when I think of a beautiful game I think of women's beach volleyball. Now that's a beautiful game!