The Death of Diversity (in more than one sense)

[Marginal]

I stand corrected. Science has finally reached the point where all truth is known. No new discoveries, no new thoughts, no competing theories need be borne. The old way of science is gone. There is no need for people to champion competing or develop new theories because they're gong to be false anyway.

Despite that, you never listed one other acceptable scientific theory that can challenge or supplant evolutionary theory. You just hinted that they might exist.

 

[Ray]

The comment that boils down to, "science isn't complete, therefore the theory of evolution could easily be wrong," is pretty much silly. Yes, evolutionary theory continues to develop--and as Sagan, Gould, and innumerable others have pointed out (you should read their stuff--they're very good), this is a sign of the strength, not the weakness, of evolutionary theory. What you are arguing for is some extra-scientific explanation--Chariots of the Gods, God's Mighty Hand--for which you have no evidence, and no authority outside the Bible.

You keep talking like I've thrown out some biblical or fringe explanation for how we got here. I didn't.

Instead of calling me silly, (which is a personal attack--a logical fallacy) instead of assuming I haven't read anything, you might make an attempt to read and understand what I said.

But that would require more effort than just quickly typing the old "you're wrong" schtik that you're reknowned for.

Incidentally, it is completely wrong to say that in science we never know what's coming next. Yes, we do. Unless three aliens land next Tuesday, giggling, and do a PowerPoint presentation on what they did to the australopithecines, or I get up tomorrow and Jesus is screaming at me with a bullhorn, we will get better and better data and understand more about how evolution produced the beauty and diversity of life on the planet.

You believe that science knows what discoveries it will make next? Kind of takes all the fun out of pure research.

OK, it's not capitalism. It's leprechauns.

Tell me that you're not looking for the best price, the best quality, and as much as you can get. Tell me you didn't buy a computer because now they don't fill a whole room and require a priesthood of specialists to run and program. Tell me that you gave up the car and jog to work. Tell me that you're the living example of how we can all live together and be at one with our environment.

 

[ginshun]

3. OK, it's not capitalism. It's leprechauns. Leprechauns run the corporations that are busily exploiting every natural resource they can find and uprooting every local culture to do it, leprechauns are creating the endless demands for cars and toys that nations try to fulfill even if it means displacing a few indigenes, leprechauns are creating the demands for electricity that push countries like China to build dams everywhere, leprechauns are centralizing agruculture and driving out family farms, leprechauns are creating new desires for eveybody to leave wherever they are and move somewhere they can, "be modern," and see Hollywood movies. Oh, and leprechauns run the culture industry, too.

Ya, I suppose you are probably right. We should just all stop worrying about money all together and form a utopian society where everybody is equal and happy, kind of like on Star Trek. Only we will make sure that nobody does any work toward advancing technology, because we wouldn't want to be modern. Better to stay exactly as we are and make sure that nobody has the temptation to leave thier village so they can go to Wal*Mart to by the next new gadget. Boy, this is going to be sweet.

 

[Ray]

Despite that, you never listed one other acceptable scientific theory that can challenge or supplant evolutionary theory. You just hinted that they might exist.

Since I'm not trying to change your opinion: I don't need to prepare a listing of competing scientific theoriess. If you are happy with it, stick with it.

I merely began by stating that I didn't buy it. I didn't throw out any other theories and I didn't say anyone who did buy it was incorrect.

 

[Makalakumu]

Umm...yeah...topic?

Evolution of memes anyone?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dudes, like read what I wrote--as in the part where, in my last post, I specifically underlined the point that it was important not to sentimentalize other cultures and the past, however sorry we might be about their disappearance. Or hell, read what YOU write--like the part where you mocked me for noting that these disappearances of language and culture had a lot to do with capitalism, which was what I was responding to. Or at least keep it in mind that if you repeatedly make it clear that you don't know anything about evolution and aren't interested in finding out, well, you're going to have a hard time arguing very well.

Incidentally, it isn't an ad hominem attack to say that comments about science never knowing what comes next, or about these mysterious other theories than evolution, or the original claim that wiping out other cultures is just evolution in action so who cares? are silly. It's an exasperated, and not particularly polite (for which I apologize) note about absurdity.

Funnily enough, you guys are spouting preetty much the Limbaugh Line on such matters. I'm sure it's just coincidence.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you sure that we live in a capitalist society?

As far as invoking evolution to explain the death of diversity this is a rather interesting tack in the conversation.

Evolution is not limited to morphologic biology. You can have an evolution of memes. Ideas change over time in response to changes in the environment. We see this happening in nature. Our species has existed for nearly 80,000 years and for most of that time change in memes happened slowly. The life of a human 20,000 years ago wasn't so much different then the life of a human 30,000 years ago.

With the inventions of agriculture and civilization, though, everything changed. There was an explosion of culture and society and new ways of interacting that completely altered the course of our species. The life of a human today is vastly different from a human 10,000 years ago.

Therefore, I would posit, that if one overwhelmingly adapted and successful population changes the environment to a point where another population cannot adapt, those memes will go extinct.

If the environment is changed too much, a mass extinction of memes is entirely possible.

upnorthkyosa

not quite- you need to do some research...

Perhaps instead of replying anonymously, it would be more helpful to the discussion if you would post things like this publically. It would especially be more helpful to the discussion if you would perhaps elucidate where I have gone wrong.

The evolution of memes is not a new idea. It was explained very well to me by Andrew H. Knoll Havard Biology professor and peer of Stephen J. Gould. In Anthropologic circles, this idea is used frequently...

 

[Ray]

you don't know anything about evolution and aren't interested in finding out, well, you're going to have a hard time arguing very well.

Oh, you want to argue? I had, at first, only wanted to say it was a shame about the "death of cultural diversity" and make a quick observation about extremists (2 kinds of extremists, contrasting). I really didn't want to argue with you.

Incidentally, it isn't an ad hominem attack to say that comments about science never knowing what comes next....are silly. It's an exasperated, and not particularly polite (for which I apologize) note about absurdity.

Thanks for the apology.

Funnily enough, you guys are spouting preetty much the Limbaugh Line on such matters. I'm sure it's just coincidence.

You owe me another apology--unless, of course, you wouldn't feel offended if I were to say something equally outlandish like: you sound like Karl Marx.

 

[rmcrobertson]

You've never actually read any Marx, have you? Actually--you're just a troll. Wow, am I thick--took me this long to notice that you never actually present any arguments, or any actual discussion.

Bye-bye, troll.

 

[Makalakumu]

Example of the evolution of memes...1854 Commodore Perry blasting his cannons off in Edo. Fifteen years later, no more samurai. Bushido changed into something more nationalistic, eventually becoming Budo.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I stand corrected. Science has finally reached the point where all truth is known. No new discoveries, no new thoughts, no competing theories need be borne. The old way of science is gone. There is no need for people to champion competing or develop new theories because they're gong to be false anyway.

Before Einstein, Newtonian ideas were plenty good. That's one of the nifty things about science: no one really knows what's coming next.

Capitalism IS the niftiest so far. But I expect to see you out there bringing about something better.

Is this an argument against the Theory of Evolution? So far, not so successful. And calling it an "extremist" point of view is just bizarre.

And I'd have to disagree - I think democracy is the niftiest - which so often in our culture is confused with capitalism. Not the same thing.

 

[Ray]

Is this an argument against the Theory of Evolution? So far, not so successful. And calling it an "extremist" point of view is just bizarre.

The particular post that you replied to was several posts removed from my post contrasting creationist and evolutionist extremists. I don't think that everyone who accepts the scientific explanation is an extremist - nor do I think that evolution is an extremist concept. Evolution is the most widely accepted scientific theory today, not likely to be replaced by any other theory for quite some time, if ever.

And I'd have to disagree - I think democracy is the niftiest - which so often in our culture is confused with capitalism. Not the same thing.

Democracy is the niftiest form of government. Capitalism is the niftiest form of economics.

 

[Flatlander]

To expand on the Capitalism/Democracy issue, please visit this thread here in the Study.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

The particular post that you replied to was several posts removed from my post contrasting creationist and evolutionist extremists. I don't think that everyone who accepts the scientific explanation is an extremist - nor do I think that evolution is an extremist concept. Evolution is the most widely accepted scientific theory today, not likely to be replaced by any other theory for quite some time, if ever.

Righty-o!