The Death of Diversity (in more than one sense)

[PeachMonkey]

Personally, I don't believe in evolution though.

How about gravity? It's another theory; how's it strike you?

 

[Hand Sword]

"I don't know because I have never studied it, but..."

Perhaps you should. We're losing a lot.

No more than has already been lost through the millenia, and will continue to be lost.

 

[Ray]

How about gravity? It's another theory; how's it strike you?

How about it? It's a physical force described fairly well with mathematics.

 

[rmcrobertson]

And evolution is a physical reality described fairly well with biology.

I find it a little bothersome that folks don't care to know about their heritage, about the reality of their past, whether it's biological or linguistic.

It's a kind of boredom I just don't get...

 

[ginshun]

"I don't know because I have never studied it, but..."

Perhaps you should. We're losing a lot.

How could I have guessed that that one was coming?

Why not prove my assumption wrong, if you in fact have studied this stuff and have some intelligent input?

An intelligent conversation involves more than just pointing out the faults in other peoples arguments. If you want to invove yourself why not make some points of your own?

 

[loki09789]

And evolution is a physical reality described fairly well with biology.

I find it a little bothersome that folks don't care to know about their heritage, about the reality of their past, whether it's biological or linguistic.

It's a kind of boredom I just don't get...

Short sightedness, narrow-mindedness, desperate focus on the present because you live in a hand to mouth existence with no energy left for cultural pursuits...there are many reasons why a dying culture may be losing its member interest.

What I am interested in is what dialectic, creole, variations on the language or whole new forms of the language are being created in this changing time. Consider Patua (French/Spanish/English hodge podge that is now recognized as its own language), "Spanglish" is a categorical morphology of N.American Dialectic spanish and American English...

The spanish of Mexico is different from that of Spain and those are both different from that spoken in South/Central America....and so on.

There may be linguistic fadings, but there are some new births as well.

 

[Ray]

And evolution is a physical reality described fairly well with biology.

I find it a little bothersome that folks don't care to know about their heritage, about the reality of their past, whether it's biological or linguistic.

It's a kind of boredom I just don't get...

Are you insulting me? Or are you trying to proselytize me? I didn't try to insult you or to proselytize you.

I'm sorry I bother you. Did I say I didn't know anything about evolution? Did I say I didn't care to learn about it or the history of languages?

But I do think it's a damn shame that cultures and languages are being killed. I think it's just awful that rain-forests are disappearing. I just find it ironic that there are those who believe it's okay because the second coming is just around the corner; and I find it odd that evolutionists are worried because the environment is changing - which should spark evolutionary leaps

(...look at what the environmental changes that led to the cambrian explosion...the atmosphore was filled with that deadly gas "oxygen" and plants were "worried" about running out of carbon dioxide - and then! oxygen breathing, carbon dioxide expelling reptiles, mamamals, etc. evolve.)

 

[TonyM.]

Diversity is counterproductive to mass media.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I find it a little bothersome that folks don't care to know about their heritage, about the reality of their past, whether it's biological or linguistic.

It's a kind of boredom I just don't get...

I find it bothersome the folks don't care to know about their musical heritage. People don't know musical history enough to understand how great music has been at some points in the past and how culture affects music and vice versa and how music has grown and changed over time. Since people understand neither the historical culture of music nor have an understanding of even the basic theoretical structure of music, our culture no longer produces Bachs and Mozarts or even John Coltranes and Charles Minguses, and we are the shallower for it.

I find it bothersome that folks don't care to know how computers actually work and how to use them probably. We, as a society, waste millions of dollars a year dealing with issues with using computers that would not exist if people using computers took even a short time to understand basics in how they operate and hot to safely operate them. Considering that in the few decades of computer existance how so much of our lives rely on them; the lack of general knowledge, and the cost of that lack of knowledge is, at best, expensive and, at worst, dangerously frightening

--------------------

These are just two things in my life that I wish more people were interested because I think their lives would be both personally enriched and also much better off if they took the time to better understand them. These are just mine; I don't think I've ever met someone who didn't feel that everyone would be better off if everyone had more knowledge/interest in their own profession or hobbies. Most people are actually right, but unfortunately we all have limited time on earth to explore what's out there. So...I try not to take it personally or to hold it against my fellow humans.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, "Ginshun," I suspect that I accurately reflected what your last post's assertion that you don't know, don't care, and don't see what the big deal is anyway. You wrote:

"It doesn't seem to me that anybody but the people that speak them can really do anything about it, and honestly, I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

I am sure there is some knowledge loss as a language dies, but I would think that it is really pretty minimal. I don't know for sure because I have never studied it, but I don't see why people would forget things when they start to speak a different language. Obviously some stuff is "Lost in Translation" as the saying goes, but I doubt if it is all that much."

Beyond the fact that the language and the culture supporting it are lost when a language dies out, I would suggest that you try reading two of the basic discussions of the subject: Alfred Lord, "Singer of Tales," (discusses the disappearance of the traditional of oral poetry in Eastern Europe), and Walter Benjamin, "The Task of the Translator," which discusses what is inevitably lost in translation. I also recommend Jean Comaroff, "Body of Power, Spirit of Resistance;" which discusses South African cultural and religious changes; though not specifically on languages, it does give some idea of what is retained, changed, and translated in such situations.

Others would be more-qualified than I am to give chapter and verse on indigenous cultures and their languages in this century. But if you'd like me to discuss your ideas, you might start having them--rather than repeatedly asserting, dunno, duncare, and anybody who does is a fool.

As for the assertion of what the hell, it's evolution, that's silly. Evolution is a natural process that takes extended time, as species--not individuals, but species--adapt to environmental change. Unless you think that nuking a town then saying, "Well, it's their fault they didn't adapt," makes sense.... But it may be worth noting that this is precisely the sort of social Darwinism that even hard-core creationists buy into, as they try to justify poverty, ruthless greed, or--in this case--the destruction of human diversity.

What's actually going on here is the development of worldwide corporate capitalism. Sorry, but most of this is happening because of insane "development," like the deforestation and mineral exploitation of the Amazon Basin--the locals, and their cultures, their languages, their histories, are just collateral damage.

One of the reasons you might try and give a hoot is that the very things conservatives complain about--like the destruction of, "family values," in this country--is happening precisely for the same reasons that languages are disappearing.

They don't pay enough, in advanced capitalism.

 

[ginshun]

See now didn't that add more thatn just telling me to shut up?

"Task fo the Traslator" sounds cool, I might check it out. Is it hard to find, or can I pick it up at any old Barnes and Noble?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Not really. Because you're not going to consider finding out about the topic.

 

[ginshun]

Easy on the condescension again. Once again you presume to know me, and contiune to think of yourself on some higher plain or something.


I will admit, that their is no way I am reading a book about the "loss of oral poetry in eastern europe" or whatever it was. But the other one might be cool.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Are you insulting me? Or are you trying to proselytize me? I didn't try to insult you or to proselytize you.

I'm sorry I bother you. Did I say I didn't know anything about evolution? Did I say I didn't care to learn about it or the history of languages?

But I do think it's a damn shame that cultures and languages are being killed. I think it's just awful that rain-forests are disappearing. I just find it ironic that there are those who believe it's okay because the second coming is just around the corner; and I find it odd that evolutionists are worried because the environment is changing - which should spark evolutionary leaps

(...look at what the environmental changes that led to the cambrian explosion...the atmosphore was filled with that deadly gas "oxygen" and plants were "worried" about running out of carbon dioxide - and then! oxygen breathing, carbon dioxide expelling reptiles, mamamals, etc. evolve.)

I believe you said you didn't believe in the theory of evolution, and then a few people were trying to address the issue that evolution is a scientific theory, not a belief system.

Change in the environment does not mean that we are going to have huge "leaps" (which sounds like leaping forward or progressing - I don't think about progress as killing of millions of people, or humans in general) in the evolution of life forms. Rapid fluctuations in environment are likely to lead to massive extinctions, rather than a new Cambrian Explosion.

Is something like that *did* occur, then it would be bye-bye us, and everything we know.

One big reason why someone like me finds global climate change and exinctions not a good sign.

But that is biological diversity.

I still find it sad and a loss that we are losing so much cultural diversity, so much that may be known, or different ways of perceiving the world.

"Progress" does not mean having to throw away our history.

 

[Ray]

I believe you said you didn't believe in the theory of evolution, and then a few people were trying to address the issue that evolution is a scientific theory, not a belief system.

Yes, evolution is the most widely accepted scientific explanation of how life developed and for the diverstity of life. It is probably to continue to be the explanation of choice for some time to come with additions and tweakings.

But certainly it is not the only scientific explanation out there. And I don't mean that the only other scientific choice is "creationism."

In any case, I only meant to point out the irony of two extreme viewpoints.

Change in the environment does not mean that we are going to have huge "leaps" (which sounds like leaping forward or progressing - I don't think about progress as killing of millions of people, or humans in general) in the evolution of life forms.

The process of evolution makes no judgement - it's a process. If we are no longer fit for our environment then we die.

Rapid fluctuations in environment are likely to lead to massive extinctions, rather than a new Cambrian Explosion.

Massive extinctions will create a vacum in which new species can proliferate with less competition.

But that is biological diversity.

I still find it sad and a loss that we are losing so much cultural diversity, so much that may be known, or different ways of perceiving the world.

"Progress" does not mean having to throw away our history.

I agree.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, if we're talking about the origins and history of life on earth--no there are no other good scientific explanations than evolution. "Intelligent design," a variation on evolutionary theory, isn't science because its claim that there is a guiding hand behind the process of evolution does not rest on any physical evidence whatsoever.

Second off, though, the shrugging off the disappearance of languages, culture, history--of human diversity--has nothing to do with evolution, except in the sense that a kind of social Darwinism is being advanced to justify it as being inevitable and right.

It has to do with the proliferation of our current economic and cultural system, which is busily wiping out, recoding, or packaging and marketing, all others.

If you think that capitalism is just the niftiest, simply say so. Why bother offering some jacked-up, "scientific," ground for such a claim--or a surrender to the kind of helplessness and anomie characteristic of consumerist cultures.

 

[Ray]

First off, if we're talking about the origins and history of life on earth--no there are no other good scientific explanations than evolution. "Intelligent design," a variation on evolutionary theory, isn't science because its claim that there is a guiding hand behind the process of evolution does not rest on any physical evidence whatsoever.

I stand corrected. Science has finally reached the point where all truth is known. No new discoveries, no new thoughts, no competing theories need be borne. The old way of science is gone. There is no need for people to champion competing or develop new theories because they're gong to be false anyway.

Before Einstein, Newtonian ideas were plenty good. That's one of the nifty things about science: no one really knows what's coming next.

If you think that capitalism is just the niftiest, simply say so. Why bother offering some jacked-up, "scientific," ground for such a claim--or a surrender to the kind of helplessness and anomie characteristic of consumerist cultures.

Capitalism IS the niftiest so far. But I expect to see you out there bringing about something better.

 

[ginshun]

It has to do with the proliferation of our current economic and cultural system, which is busily wiping out, recoding, or packaging and marketing, all others.

If you think that capitalism is just the niftiest, simply say so. Why bother offering some jacked-up, "scientific," ground for such a claim--or a surrender to the kind of helplessness and anomie characteristic of consumerist cultures.

Just because it is your opinion that capitalism is responsible for the destruction of cultures/languages around the world, doesn't make it fact. If it were there would be no debate.

 

[Makalakumu]

Capitalism IS the niftiest so far. But I expect to see you out there bringing about something better.

Are you sure that we live in a capitalist society?

As far as invoking evolution to explain the death of diversity this is a rather interesting tack in the conversation.

Evolution is not limited to morphologic biology. You can have an evolution of memes. Ideas change over time in response to changes in the environment. We see this happening in nature. Our species has existed for nearly 80,000 years and for most of that time change in memes happened slowly. The life of a human 20,000 years ago wasn't so much different then the life of a human 30,000 years ago.

With the inventions of agriculture and civilization, though, everything changed. There was an explosion of culture and society and new ways of interacting that completely altered the course of our species. The life of a human today is vastly different from a human 10,000 years ago.

Therefore, I would posit, that if one overwhelmingly adapted and successful population changes the environment to a point where another population cannot adapt, those memes will go extinct.

If the environment is changed too much, a mass extinction of memes is entirely possible.

upnorthkyosa

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. The comment that boils down to, "science isn't complete, therefore the theory of evolution could easily be wrong," is pretty much silly. Yes, evolutionary theory continues to develop--and as Sagan, Gould, and innumerable others have pointed out (you should read their stuff--they're very good), this is a sign of the strength, not the weakness, of evolutionary theory. What you are arguing for is some extra-scientific explanation--Chariots of the Gods, God's Mighty Hand--for which you have no evidence, and no authority outside the Bible.

2. Incidentally, it is completely wrong to say that in science we never know what's coming next. Yes, we do. Unless three aliens land next Tuesday, giggling, and do a PowerPoint presentation on what they did to the australopithecines, or I get up tomorrow and Jesus is screaming at me with a bullhorn, we will get better and better data and understand more about how evolution produced the beauty and diversity of life on the planet.

3. OK, it's not capitalism. It's leprechauns. Leprechauns run the corporations that are busily exploiting every natural resource they can find and uprooting every local culture to do it, leprechauns are creating the endless demands for cars and toys that nations try to fulfill even if it means displacing a few indigenes, leprechauns are creating the demands for electricity that push countries like China to build dams everywhere, leprechauns are centralizing agruculture and driving out family farms, leprechauns are creating new desires for eveybody to leave wherever they are and move somewhere they can, "be modern," and see Hollywood movies. Oh, and leprechauns run the culture industry, too.

4. "Memes?" Not at all the same thing as biology. And incidentally, it is also important not to sentimentalize some of the disappearing cultures and their languages. The idea that we should save some record of them doesn't mean that they are all sweet little oases of Edenic life--any more than the fact that capitalism wiped out (well, mostly) feudalism means that we should sentimentalize those murdering bastards, the royal families of Europe.

5. It's probably inevitable that all these cultures are going to disappear, in favor of something like a global monoculture. After all, everybody's buying into leprechaunism.