The cane as a weapon

[BlackSheep]

Hello Bushidomartialarts

Thanks for the replies to my questions. I didn’t read your last two posts before making my last post. I don’t know how I missed that, duh. So my last post wasn’t meant to be argumentative with you. But it does seem that we do disagree somewhat.

I’d like to continue this discussion with you, but I have to rush off to work now. I’ll post back latter.

Cheers

 

[Drac]

One of the points he makes about learning the cane is it is the only weapon you can take on an airplane.

True..I've carried my CaneMaster Cane onboard post 9/11 and have never had any problems from TSA screeners..

 

[bushidomartialarts]

No worries, Black Sheep. Informed debate is one of my favorite things about this forum and about conversation in general.

You're dead right about what you called 'hanging guard' -- using the crook of the cane to protect the hand. Also, when you support with a second hand, it's best to press rather than wrap your hand all the way around.

Grappling with a cane is advisable for a certain value of grappling. I wouldn't recommend ground-fighting with it, but you can hook, trip and trap with one pretty well. Like most wrist locks or arm bars, the best application is to use the hold to maneuver your opponent into a vulnerable position, then whammo.

In terms of swinging like a bat vs. thrusting -- you're right that the swing generates more force. The thrust puts the force into a smaller surface area, like a spear hand vs. a sword hand. You want to be real careful with one-handed thrusts. They tend to be wobbly unless you've got really strong forearms.

The most important thing to remember is that canes rock.

 

[James Kovacich]

I like the hooked canes myself. Straight canes and ones with a handle at 90 degrees don't grab as well. If there is no crook, its a baton, walking stick or Jo whatever you want to call it. Just my preference. PEACE

The cane with a crook does not swing anywhere near as good as a cane without. But with a regular looking cane I think the law will ask less questions as far as traveling with it.

I can't imagine myself trying to get on a plane with a "combat walking stick."

 

[Jimi]

The cane with a crook does not swing anywhere near as good as a cane without. But with a regular looking cane I think the law will ask less questions as far as traveling with it.

I can't imagine myself trying to get on a plane with a "combat walking stick."

I can get a great deal of whip with my cane when swinging it from holding the crook, if I swing it from a stick grip like heaven grip in the FMA's then I agree the strike is not as powerfull because of the crook will throw it off balance to strike that way. Not all that I am capable to do with the cane has FMA's principles to it. Different strokes brother man.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i'm with jimi on this one. also, you can grasp it by the rounded part of the crook to swing the whole thing (like a tonfa/nightstick) and get a whole lot of bang for your buck.

 

[Hand Sword]

I like a cane with a rounded part. Fits nicely around a neck, or into it!

Swing for the fences!!

 

[BlackSheep]

i'm with jimi on this one. also, you can grasp it by the rounded part of the crook to swing the whole thing (like a tonfa/nightstick) and get a whole lot of bang for your buck.

What do you think of this strike?

Begin to swing the cane like you were going to hit the bad guy on the side of the head with a horizontal swing. But before impact halt the motion of your arm and roll your wrist so to tip of the cane continues in an arch and strikes the bad guy in the back of the head. The crook would be handy here and this strike might be useful if the bad guy is using something as a shield that you want to get around.


I was thing that stop hits make more sense than parries or blocks. Better to smash the bag guy’s hand than to parry the blade. Imho parries work with swords (swords have hand guards) and not much else.

And speaking of blows to the limbs, should limbs be the primary target of your strikes? Limbs are easier to hit than the head or core. Blows to the knee can incapacitate the bad guy enough for the cane user to escape. And beside the disarm potential, strikes to the arms will make it more difficult for the bad guy to get his own attack going (its hard to punch with a broken wrist).

 

[IcemanSK]

Drac & I have discussed the idea of Senior citizens using canes for SD on another thread. I thought it would be great to teach my mother-in-law (who uses one to get around). Master Shuey (Canemasters) says "its great for Seniors." I often thought it would be a great weapon in my later years also. But it dawned on me that Seniors that NEED a cane (& who have no MA experience) would have a tough time doing most of the quick movements & strength movements required in most cane techniques. The courses for Seniors are mainly stretchin-type exercises in which they use the cane (rather than SD).

Something to consider when Seniors ask about it.

 

[shesulsa]

Drac & I have discussed the idea of Senior citizens using canes for SD on another thread. I thought it would be great to teach my mother-in-law (who uses one to get around). Master Shuey (Canemasters) says "its great for Seniors." I often thought it would be a great weapon in my later years also. But it dawned on me that Seniors that NEED a cane (& who have no MA experience) would have a tough time doing most of the quick movements & strength movements required in most cane techniques. The courses for Seniors are mainly stretchin-type exercises in which they use the cane (rather than SD).

Something to consider when Seniors ask about it.

Most people get canes at the time when what they REALLY need is a walker. A cane is a little extra oomph to balance - very little. If a person has trouble standing long, walking straight or needs support, then they need a walker. The cane is more a mobility aid for people who can almost walk very well. There are many people who use a cane to walk distances as opposed to walkers or wheelchairs for exercise, for instance stroke victims who have partial paralysis. These folks usually are (and for their own personal protection probably should be) accompanied by another more ambulatory individual.

So ...it logically follows that the individual person should be evaluated for their strength in balance and stability without the cane before they can think it could be used effectively while standing. I think if a person can shift their weight easily, maintain posture and stability for a few minutes without aid, then using the cane for defense has potential, but if a person is in constant requirement of the cane for balance and stability, even after a few seconds, I would question the viability of its use standing up.

Sitting down, now ... that's another matter. :ultracool

 

[James Kovacich]

1) Begin to swing the cane like you were going to hit the bad guy on the side of the head with a horizontal swing. But before impact halt the motion of your arm and roll your wrist so to tip of the cane continues in an arch and strikes the bad guy in the back of the head. The crook would be handy here and this strike might be useful if the bad guy is using something as a shield that you want to get around.


2) I was thing that stop hits make more sense than parries or blocks. Better to smash the bag guy’s hand than to parry the blade. Imho parries work with swords (swords have hand guards) and not much else.

3) And speaking of blows to the limbs, should limbs be the primary target of your strikes? Limbs are easier to hit than the head or core. Blows to the knee can incapacitate the bad guy enough for the cane user to escape. And beside the disarm potential, strikes to the arms will make it more difficult for the bad guy to get his own attack going (its hard to punch with a broken wrist).

1) I'm not sure what your asking? A horizontal blow to the side of the head would be coming straight (at head heighth) to the head from the outside to probably around the ear. Foir me to visualize that strike I would have to be either standing a bit outside to pull it off or the tip would not make much of an impact. I don't think you would stop and change directions either. It would more like just changing directions before impact.

2) Are you parrying with the cane or barehanded? The hand is always a good target but you also leave yourself with a higher chance of missing your target.

If he has a weapon in his hand and you have a cane. You will parry if that is an appropriate response or you may use you body and try to avoid an attack and use your cane to keep distance from the attacker.The type of attack dictates the type of response we must use.

If all we do is casually train with the cane and we don't put in some serious blade and stick training we will likely be cut or beaten a bit with a stick by the attacker.

3) If he has a weapon in his hand and you have a cane. Attacking the attacking arm is the smartest defense/offense. Minimize the attacks effect then shut it down. While attacking the limb the head will be open as well and thats where the serious training comes in. Being able to flow from defense to offense.

 

[BlackSheep]

You will parry if that is an appropriate response

You will fight as you train. If you never train parries* then you won’t use them in a fight. The questions is, is it worth training parries or are you better off training stop hits? In other words which is generally the better technique to use?

* I’m referring to parries with the cane, not the hand.

 

[Flatlander]

In other words which is generally the better technique to use?

* I’m referring to parries with the cane, not the hand.

Tough to say, really. It depends, as always, on the specifics of the circumstance. Most notably, angle of attack, and range.

For example, if you're in stand up grappling range already, attacking the hand isn't really viable. You need to have range in order to make that strike effective. In this scenario I'd advocate both hands on the cane while simultaneuosly avoiding or parrying strikes and looking for follow ups to the head or neck.

As another example, if the angle of attack is a straight thrust, a parry here will have a greater likelihood of success, as the line leaves very little room for error if you're trying to strike with a downward motion (for example).

Further, when weilding a cane, remember that a parry and a strike can be the same thing - if done with enough force, the parry strike will serve both purposes. The primary risk when parrying vs. a blade is that if the attacker has a reasonable amount of understanding and training with the weapon, they are likely to simply change their attack and cut you.

So, given that, my thinking is that the best idea is to maintain range, thus giving you that advantage (as your weapon is longer), and attack the hand, wrist, or elbow. Rather than parry and counter, keep your distance so that the blade isn't a threat, and attack it.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that there is no 'this way or that way'. Train all of your tools, focus less on "this move in that scenario", and seek a greater understanding of how the body moves, angles of attack, range, and mobility.

What do you think of this strike?

This sounds to me like what is referred to in FMA as the "abanico". I think that it's a wonderful idea in the correct circumstance. It's evasive, effective, and can be either an offensive or defensive maneuver. I've always had an affinity for blending with the strike of the aggressor. Obviously, vs. a knife, blending is a risky proposition. The move is still valid in many circumstances. Think about this: rather than "halt the motion of your arm and roll your wrist", let the strike land, thus halting the motion for you, then roll your wrist. You get 2 strikes for the price of one.

 

[James Kovacich]

Yes I understand you question on the parry but I broke it up into a few parts to make my point. Your repsnse was correct and that proves what I said about
If all we do is casually train with the cane and we don't put in some serious blade and stick training we will likely be cut or beaten a bit with a stick by the attacker. Or at least it shows you understand it.

To effectively "use" a cane one should use realistic training methods such as FMA which will give a deep understanding and not the classic "martial trickery" cane tech numders 1-25. The cane is effective but don't be fooled by the hook (which in my opinion is in the way-unless someone is trying to grab it from me). It is a legal stick.

 

[Kwiter]

There's a magazine on the subject of making Bows the old fashioned way, Antique Archer I think it's called

 

[elder999]

There's a magazine on the subject of making Bows the old fashioned way, Antique Archer I think it's called

That's Primitive Archer.