Parent problem with children not grading.

[Phoenix44]

Something that we were discussing last night was to provide parents with the information of the requirements for testing...

Exactly.

This is what I alluded to in my 12/2 6:15 pm post. You have to make the criteria clear, in advance, and then you have to apply it consistently. You'll still have some hurt feelings, but at least there will less "shock" and more fairness.

 

[Tez3]

The girls had been with us for 5 years and were fine right up till this year when they just haven't been coming in. In total they can only have been in ten times in the whole year, there is just no way they can grade. At one point we'd assumed they'd left because it was months before they came again, they'd been away from April until September. No reason was given but it must have been clear surely that the girls had forgotten a fair amount of what they'd learnt and they'd done nothing new in that time. since September they've only been in about once a month, just not enought time or work to grade this time,not when others have been working their socks off.
The fact they'd been coming so long then stopped then come back and done this is a lot of what is upsetting me. It was nice to have them back but they just don't come enough now for them to do some meaningful work, an hour or so a month just isn't enough.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Excuse me but I really need to have a minor rant here and also see if others have had this problem!
On Saturday we have a grading for the children, the date was announced weeks ago, the children who were grading and their parents were informed by letter. We'd watched the children go through their katas etc and decided who was ready to try. In the following weeks the children have worked hard to learn their katas and get ready for the grading. We have an asthmatic boy who is really throwing his all into everything, sparring, SD work and kata, another lad is very slow and his work is never going to be 'perfect' but he tries his best and is doing very well, another boy has come from another style and has worked hard to learn our style.

Tonight I had to announce at the beginning of the lesson the grading may be delayed until the week after as our chief instructors mother is very ill and he's had to go down to Bristol to look after her and his father. That's five hours drive away. No problem though everyone understood except one mother who wasn't too happy. She was even more unhappy when I said well actually 'your daughter and her friend aren't grading so it won't affect you'. She went ballistic! started having a go at me in front of all the parents, well I'm used to irate people so did the usual calm polite thing, the upshot was her and her friend took their daughters out of the class and walked out "on principle"

Now these two girls have been with us a while they are green tag and green belt, however over the past year or more they have barely been in to train. The girls have forgotten what they knew and would barely grade at yellow belt if they took the grading now. They had been told this and but denied it when they were speaking to me. I explained this to the mothers, I said we'd watched them and it would be unfair to grade them just to fail. (and we knew they'd fail, it wouldn't be just because they'd done a bad grading, they really can't do it) It just didn't get through that the girls didn't know what they needed to, they insisted they did. They are now going to phone up the chief instructor and complain bitterly, just when he doesn't need more grief.

I could have said I suppose right sit there and watch but how bad would these girls (age 11 and 9) have felt not being able to do things properly in front of all the others. The younger girls was already having a tantrum as it was. After they'd gone a couple of the other mothers said that they would complain if they were allowed to grade and were given their belts as it made a mockery of their childrens efforts. Actually I agree with them but now I've been left feeling like I'm the baddie.

I think you did fine. But that is me.

I think you are trying to hold a standard of skill for your students which is a good thing.

I think one can get upset over loss of people or students. But sometimes it is out of your control.

Have I asked for a refund myself over policy changes or what have you? Yes.

But the parents need to understand that they could also have asked for a yelling match, in which case they still woudl have left and still would have been upset, but the children would be upset as well as you their instructor was yelling at their parents and making it known to everyone present that the kids did not deserve the rank they had let alone to test for lack of attendence. It not only could have made your point but serious upset other children as well.

If you business is with children then you need them. But, you will have to understand that if they leave and the others left get to grow, then it is the best you could do.

I was once asked why I "let" people call me names while I was escorting them out or kicking them out while I was bouncing. I just smiled and said, they are gone. They will not be back while I am here. I am here and I am going back to work. They loose. They wanted to come here as this is someplace that people want to be. I win, as I am not hurt and no police reports. They loose as they cannot get the benefits of the social interaction.

Now for you and as mentioned by others, it is the children who also loose. But you cannot help that in all cases. You can only do what you can do, and not expect to have 100%.


Best wishes and good luck

 

[Gordon Nore]

The girls had been with us for 5 years and were fine right up till this year when they just haven't been coming in. In total they can only have been in ten times in the whole year, there is just no way they can grade...

What age, out of curiosity? Around grade five or six (say, ages 11-12),
girls can be a little prickly. It's a rough time. As unnecessary as mum's behaviour was, I wonder what she's dealing with at home.

I recall a girl we had from quite a young age who turned nasty for about a year or so. Eyes rolling. Dramatic sighs. Cut eye glances. Her attendance became spotty. Who knows -- maybe from mom's perspective getting her motivated to go train on a given day was a huge breakthrough.

 

[Kacey]

I had a student who had reached his red belt around the time he turned 11. At that point, he lost interest and wanted to quit - but his parents told him he was too close to a major goal to quit before he earned his black belt, which is all well and good, in theory - except that this particular student, being uninterested in being in class, fooled around and generally performed poorly unless practice in class was presented as a game. I let him test because he was able to pass if he put in the effort - but he didn't. He had to perform 8 patterns - he wandered through all but the lowest and highest. He missed both his breaks. He messed up the formatting on all of his step sparring. He was rude to the testing instructor. Therefore - despite the ability he showed in his highest and lowest patterns - he failed. As his instructor, I agreed that he deserved to fail. His father, however, was quite incensed, because that meant that he would have to retest for his 1st gup, because it meant he wouldn't be eligible to test for his black belt at the next testing.

After explaining to the father why his son failed, and providing him with the testing instructor's contact information if he had further questions, the father went off to discuss it with the son. I never saw either one of them again. It sucks - but it happens.

 

[Tez3]

One of the girls is 12, her mother didn't say anything, she's just had a baby so we understood that getting to class wasn't easy for her but it wasn't her that really said anything, she just followed the other mother. The other child is 10, it was her mother who was doing all the shouting.
We were a bit sad that the girls had appearred to leave but both my instructor and I have kids ( he's 3, I've 2) so know what kids are like and they did know they were welcome back. I suppose it was the suddeness of the diagreement that surprised me really.
I was hoping my instructor would be back tonight but it's now unlikely, I've just got up ( it's half eight in the morning here) and we are cut off by blizzards and about a foot of snow. There's no way he's going to make it up as the main roads are blocked. that's typical of our country lol, it was forecast but we're never ready! I may not have classes tonight anyway!!

I don't mind getting abuse at work, well i do but I always think well I'm well paid and anyway it's the uniform they are shouting at but in martial arts I teach for free and i get abused lol! In fact it usually means I end up out of pocket. Oh well as they say round my way "there's nowt so queer as folk!"

 

[BrandonLucas]

One of the girls is 12, her mother didn't say anything, she's just had a baby so we understood that getting to class wasn't easy for her but it wasn't her that really said anything, she just followed the other mother. The other child is 10, it was her mother who was doing all the shouting.
We were a bit sad that the girls had appearred to leave but both my instructor and I have kids ( he's 3, I've 2) so know what kids are like and they did know they were welcome back. I suppose it was the suddeness of the diagreement that surprised me really.
I was hoping my instructor would be back tonight but it's now unlikely, I've just got up ( it's half eight in the morning here) and we are cut off by blizzards and about a foot of snow. There's no way he's going to make it up as the main roads are blocked. that's typical of our country lol, it was forecast but we're never ready! I may not have classes tonight anyway!!

I don't mind getting abuse at work, well i do but I always think well I'm well paid and anyway it's the uniform they are shouting at but in martial arts I teach for free and i get abused lol! In fact it usually means I end up out of pocket. Oh well as they say round my way "there's nowt so queer as folk!"

It does suck that things like this happen, but when you deal with the public, expect the unexpected from people.

Also, you're a teacher, an instructor. You have to make unpopular decisions to the best of your ability so the outcome of the decision will benefit the greater good. Of course you're going to get crapped on every once in a while. It comes with the territory. But that doesnt' mean that it's fair or just.

Everyone has bad days, too. And they never happen at the best time. So vent well and vent often...it does help.

As long as you stick by your decision and continue to teach those that want to learn to the best of your ability, you've done far and away more than the average person out there.

 

[zeeberex]

Excuse me but I really need to have a minor rant here and also see if others have had this problem!
On Saturday we have a grading for the children, the date was announced weeks ago, the children who were grading and their parents were informed by letter. We'd watched the children go through their katas etc and decided who was ready to try. In the following weeks the children have worked hard to learn their katas and get ready for the grading. We have an asthmatic boy who is really throwing his all into everything, sparring, SD work and kata, another lad is very slow and his work is never going to be 'perfect' but he tries his best and is doing very well, another boy has come from another style and has worked hard to learn our style.

Tonight I had to announce at the beginning of the lesson the grading may be delayed until the week after as our chief instructors mother is very ill and he's had to go down to Bristol to look after her and his father. That's five hours drive away. No problem though everyone understood except one mother who wasn't too happy. She was even more unhappy when I said well actually 'your daughter and her friend aren't grading so it won't affect you'. She went ballistic! started having a go at me in front of all the parents, well I'm used to irate people so did the usual calm polite thing, the upshot was her and her friend took their daughters out of the class and walked out "on principle"

Now these two girls have been with us a while they are green tag and green belt, however over the past year or more they have barely been in to train. The girls have forgotten what they knew and would barely grade at yellow belt if they took the grading now. They had been told this and but denied it when they were speaking to me. I explained this to the mothers, I said we'd watched them and it would be unfair to grade them just to fail. (and we knew they'd fail, it wouldn't be just because they'd done a bad grading, they really can't do it) It just didn't get through that the girls didn't know what they needed to, they insisted they did. They are now going to phone up the chief instructor and complain bitterly, just when he doesn't need more grief.

I could have said I suppose right sit there and watch but how bad would these girls (age 11 and 9) have felt not being able to do things properly in front of all the others. The younger girls was already having a tantrum as it was. After they'd gone a couple of the other mothers said that they would complain if they were allowed to grade and were given their belts as it made a mockery of their childrens efforts. Actually I agree with them but now I've been left feeling like I'm the baddie.

Two edges to the sword in my opinion:

1) Are the kids worthy of the grade, ie: have they EARNED it?
2) Is it a matter of keeping mommy happy enough to pay the monthly dues?

My opinion would lean heavily towards number one being the more worthy contender.

 

[geezer]

I don't mind getting abuse at work, well i do but I always think well I'm well paid and anyway it's the uniform they are shouting at but in martial arts I teach for free and i get abused lol! In fact it usually means I end up out of pocket. Oh well as they say round my way "there's nowt so queer as folk!"

I'm a public high school school teacher and I know exactly where you are coming from. In my job, I have to do everything I can to "insure student success". And I get my share of abuse without getting paid much. I can't just kick a kid out of my class, no matter how rude and disruptive he or she may be. If I exhaust every strategy to remedy the situation, if I have written documentation of evey incident, and every accomodation or intervention, I may petition to have a child sent to a study hall. There he or she may still earn credit by completing alternative assignments, which I must individually design and assess. We are talking hours and hours of extra work here. Fortunately for me, I've only had to take it that far once in the fourteen years I've been at this. But then I'm an art teacher, so kids usually enjoy my class. It's tougher for the core area teachers. A couple of disruptive kids can totally ruin everbody's opportunity to learn. Interject angry parents in the equation and you really have a problem! One that can cost you your career.

So, in a way, I think you are lucky that you can let those kids and their parents just walk away. Or you can kick them out. You can demand a level of performance and respect or they must face real consequences. That's a lesson that's not getting taught often enough elsewhere.

 

[foggymorning162]

What I want to know is, how come I only have 1 or 2 of those little green box thingies. Other people have more rep box thingies than I do and I demand to WHY I am being cheated of box thingies. I know I haven't posted alot, but I have been a member for a long time, just lurking around. I've put my time in and I want to know who I need to talk to to get box thingies!!!!

I want more green box thingies too!!!!

You definitely did the right thing. I think most schools have had this problem at one time or another. It is especially hard when there are siblings and they don't grade to the same rank, parents get upset but should you punish one for being better by not giving them the rank they deserve or should you give the one that isn't as good a higher rank so they don't have to feel bad.

 

[Tez3]

One of the annoying things is that both these girls are actually good and if they came to class would have graded no problems at all. I can't grade them when they haven't done the techniques and katas for the grade they are testing for. It's not that they aren't good enough or it's just an opinion about whether they should grade, they are several katas, and a few techniques short of what they need plus they've forgotten what they did know before due to being off and not practising!
One mother is leading the other mother in this because I'm sure the older girl's mother understands, her daughter certainly does.
It's not as though we'll miss the money from them because they've hardly been in during the year! It's what I don't understand, why the mothers can't see that not coming means they can't grade because they don't know what they need to. My instructor said he's not putting them in to fail them when it's obvious they don't know their stuff. When they other children are putting so much effort into their work we can't reward them by giving belts to children who don't come and don't know what they are doing. I've got children who started three months ago who are testing for their first belts who don't know who these girls are.

I do the thing where the whole class starts with the first kata and they work through them all, sitting down when they reach one they don't know, the white belts sit down after the first three, one of the girls does too and she's green tag, the other girl a green belt sits down after the first four!! The green belt has five katas more she needs and the other girl four, how can they grade without knowing them? Students once they know the first three will only learn the next one or two depending on the child, the green belt should have only had two to learn over a period of time if she hadn't had to relearn the ones she's forgotten, I can't teach that in an hour every so often. I certainly can't teach all that in a week before grading!

The grading is cancelled now until the 13th December because my instructor is still in Bristol, two more sessions isn't going to help the girls though even if they did come back. I don't know if they would have come back last night, I only had two children in, the rest were snowbound!!

 

[hkfuie]

I have had similar things happen to me, too. Sucks.

But they did not know their stuff. That's the bottom line. No one does anyone any favors when they pretend reality doesn't exist.

Especially in martial arts. The best path is the most difficult one to follow sometimes.

 

[Tez3]

My instructor was back tonight, he is happy with what I said and did which is a great relief! I really didn't want him bothered while his mother was so ill. He did say that perhaps I should have asked for a hundred pounds and sold them a black belt each!! He was joking though, he said he wasn't about to start giving people belts, they had to earn them. He also confirmed he'd told the girls they weren't grading so the girls lied to me in front of their mothers.
I said I didn't know whether they would come back or not, he said that was okay ( something else I worried about, losing students) he wasn't bothered, if they were going to be like that, stuff em! Lol! A big relief for me all round.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I know this has been said to death, but you handled your situation expertly.

Being 15, I am of course, a student, and I've been training in ninjutsu for about two years. I'm a 7th kyu and I get a new belt in a very...disorganized fashion (Sensei randomly pulls me out of the group and says "Rob, do this" and then I do it, next thing I know, he's telling me I'm X-kyu.) My mother is very upset by this because she says he doesn't handle his business professionally and that she should be told when I'm being graded and such. Millions of times she's come to me and asked "Can't you find some other school?" and I will reply to her "No. I'm happy there, I learn a lot there. It's an adult class and I had to go through so many interviews and exams to be accepted. No way am I giving that up." I haven't brought it up to my sensei that she feels he's not grading my fairly, because I know he'll tell her the same thing I do, "This isn't a place of business"

Like it's been said, sensei isn't delivering the belts like pizza. He iterates to us time and time again the dangers of being a rank chaser, as, unfortunately, I've found most parents of the younger martial artists are.

To bring the point home, when I trained in jiu-jitsu about a year and a half before I joined ninjutsu, and I SUCKED at it. Three months into training, I was still having difficulty with some of the most basic moves. My teacher would get frustrated and even give up on trying to teach me certain grabs.

Still, however, I managed to go up two belt ranks, even though I knew I didn't deserve it. My mom was happy, however.

My point is, I have one of those rank-chasing parents, and I'm quite embarrassed by her, because my teacher (even the teacher I had in jiu-jitsu) knew that I wasn't interested in my rank, but if I deserved it.

Once again, great job on how you handled it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tonight I had to announce at the beginning of the lesson the grading may be delayed until the week after as our chief instructors mother is very ill and he's had to go down to Bristol to look after her and his father. That's five hours drive away. No problem though everyone understood except one mother who wasn't too happy. She was even more unhappy when I said well actually 'your daughter and her friend aren't grading so it won't affect you'. She went ballistic! started having a go at me in front of all the parents, well I'm used to irate people so did the usual calm polite thing, the upshot was her and her friend took their daughters out of the class and walked out "on principle".

Good riddance. On principle.

Now these two girls have been with us a while they are green tag and green belt, however over the past year or more they have barely been in to train. The girls have forgotten what they knew and would barely grade at yellow belt if they took the grading now. They had been told this and but denied it when they were speaking to me. I explained this to the mothers, I said we'd watched them and it would be unfair to grade them just to fail. (and we knew they'd fail, it wouldn't be just because they'd done a bad grading, they really can't do it) It just didn't get through that the girls didn't know what they needed to, they insisted they did. They are now going to phone up the chief instructor and complain bitterly, just when he doesn't need more grief.

This paragraph supports my above comment. Such people are a disease to everything and everyone they touch.

I could have said I suppose right sit there and watch but how bad would these girls (age 11 and 9) have felt not being able to do things properly in front of all the others. The younger girls was already having a tantrum as it was. After they'd gone a couple of the other mothers said that they would complain if they were allowed to grade and were given their belts as it made a mockery of their childrens efforts. Actually I agree with them but now I've been left feeling like I'm the baddie.

Bad to the bone, sir. Sometimes you must be: it really is the only thing that some people respect or understand. They lied to you in front of the class in order to get their way, kind of like a five year old. You called their bluff and they left "on principle." If they come back saying that it was all a misunderstanding, be really bad and tell them that you can't take them back because you'd be allowing them to violate their own principle.

Daniel

 

[Lynne]

As others have said, you handled it very well, Tez. I know you were also worried about upsetting your chief instructor. I'm sure he has been through this more than once and is used to it. I bet he didn't agonize one bit.

In our school, if there is a pattern of skipping classes one will not be allowed to test. Those who skip classes regularl usually drop out anyway (unless there really is mitigating circumstances such as injuries or illness).

Sounds like the parent should be taking martial arts, not the two girls!

It was nice of you all to not have the girls grade.