Warning: :soapbox:
Shogun said:
"ninja stuff", as you called it, is real-time combat. it decides a battle,
You have got to be kidding. EVery BJK guy I've randori'd with has been overhwelmed with the "aliveness" of the experience. They have had pretty moves with complex aiki concepts buried within, but almost no experience applying them in the kiln of preperatory training. Myself, I've sparred & rolled with many a BJK+offshoots/indies guys, and have yet to be unpleasantly surprised (again, great moves, just not much experience applying them against a vigorously resisting and counter-attacking opponent).
I was training a kenpo white belt for an appearance on Battledome, and we worked for about 2 weeks on basic BJJ grappling; 10 hours on basic arnis drills; and about 20 hours on kickboxing/sparring skills. One day, nearer to the event, we suited up in full kendo armour for some red-line panic-mode training. He got about 1 hour of extremely fundamental sowrdsmanship training ("hold it in front of you where it's practical, not pretty; whack the guy a lot, preferably where he ain't covered" kinda basic) when we were joined by our resident 4th dan BJK dude, who has travelled the world (Europe, South America, Japan, North America) training with different BJK & offshoot indie instructors to gain a thorough understanding of his art.
In the suits, he was so lost, he took a serious beating, having been nothing but a striking post for the student (but he looked good warming up with the to ahead of time...pretty postures, and all). Good thing Hatsumi-sama recently named the year of the sword(s), because from what I've seen, a refresher is needed bad.
Suits came off, and we sparred. He admittedly (after being bonked about a bit) had never trained in a continuous sparring situation like this before. He'd throw an ichimonji-like thrust to the body or head, which would get sloughed off and answered with a 5-shot combo, driving.
He got tired of being pummeled, so we rolled. Yeah, he was good at bending fingers & toes if we weren't paying attention, but aside from that he really had no clue how to navigate a clash, competitive take-down struggles, or wrasslin when the whole thing came to the floor.
I've visited -- and been visited by -- multiple shinoboys, and have not yet been given cause to step back and give pause. I feel kinda sorry for the guys who spend months arguing about pedigrees in the ninja forums, because so far, even the pure bloods I've trained with move like their coordinationally challenged, or have just never really sparred or grappled in their lives.
Don't get me wrong: the taijutsu techs are absolutely awesome, and I leave training very sore after each session. But it is the same problem I see with the "let's pretend" training I see in Kenpo (my main art). Some guy throws an attack, then stands there frozen in space and time while counter techniques are negotiated in their space. No follow-up hits from the attacker, no barrages or combos, just counters leading to aiki tie-ups (cool ones, but not alive). The taijutsu I learned was deeply influenced by Paris judo and hard-style kyukoshin-kai & isshin-ryu sparring, so there was always randori, sparring, etc., through all combat ranges.
I'm sure this will tick off the ninja online, leading to blasts on the rep points (bummer, too...I was almost destined to be famous), but from what I have seen, the actual number of hours spent in rigorous, strenuous
contest with another warm body are minimal...and they do matter.
It's how you actually learn to apply what you've learned to someone who doesn't want you to.
As a side thought of the silliness of the "BJJ is sport, not combat" thing, world-traveller ninja-boy thought it was a good idea to torque my wrist while I was mounted on him. Spoke of using pain to dismount someone while he did it. Yep, it hurt...and it took him a moment to emerge from his world of fantasy to see the repeated inward slamming elbows I was aiming at his head for effect, but pulling out of courtesy (to make a point). It only takes a couple of contacts from those blows in that position to definitively determine the combat effectiveness of BJJ. Did anybody see the kickboxer in one of the 1st UFC's who had been working on his grappling "just a bit" (after being beaten by Royce the previous time around), who mounted one of Bussey's senior ninja-boys, and elbowed him till it looked like skull was showing through the cuts? Remember how dizzy and looped the Warrior International fighter was...feet seizing in shock from the beating, stopped by the judge because the ninja had no idea what happened, or how to stop it? And he (the kick-boxer) wasn't even trained for any great length of time in how to gain or keep superior positions, much less natural weapons available for striking from these positions. He basically
found himself in the mount (looking surprised, but pleased), and took advantage of it.
And if you think he only knew to strike because of his kickboxing experience, watch some of the Vale Tudo grudge matches from Brazil, pre-BJJ coming to US. Common formula: Mount, Beat, then Choke out or break bones. And they beat from any of the superior positions, with punches, elbows, knees, head-butts, kicks, and so on. My wrist would've been sore, but the side of his face would have been caved in from about a dozen elbows he wouldn't have been able to block (I was kneeling on his ipsilateral hand). Reality check on the deadly ninja battle skills, bubba.
I trained and brawled with some of the first Hayes students to proliferate in underground OC clubs, and was not impressed. Shame, really, because I know there are some sick-deadly practitioners out there I wouldn't wanna mess with (i.e., doubt I want to cross Mr. Seago while he's busy going bump in the night).
I am old, out of shape, and haven't been on the mat for years. I'm
still sure I know
enough about BJJ that, if you
don't know what you're doing, you'll just place yourself in a number of waiting mouse traps as a natural result of the instinctual response to struggle to move away from pressure and pain. Worse yet, I can pop ya from just about any position in the process...and
I can reach
your eyes,
too!
This sort of knowledge about what we can do when we turn the screws tighter, combined with the fact we actually get down and dirty (not theoretical, but lotsa contact) when we train, may be where much of the BJJ attitude comes from. People who have never been on the mat telling us that their kata preparation would magically keep us from snatching them to the floor,
beating them bloody, breaking their bones and choking them till their cold and blue like a killer whale yanking a beached seal back to the depths for consumption. As if, somehow, those who have been in it for awhile haven't done just that to many well-accomplished "combat" martial artists.
Get it through deinen nogginen...BJJ is one of the most effective approaches to personal combat, and this point is bourne out assuredly everyday in small-level challenge matches between proponents of different disciplines, as well as in unecessary street-fights engaged in by the young and stupid who train in BJJ. Perfect? No. Not by any means, making the BJJ attitude all the more annoying. But combine it with what you know about scratching eyes, chewing adams apples, etc., and it's a darn good system for establishing and maintaining superior positions from which you
can do nasty things to him, while he
can't do them to you.
Off the soapbox,
Dave
