BJJ vs. Wrestling (Stand up fighting vs. Ground fighting)

[Cobra]

Wrestling is very good on the ground. I've rolled with a few of them, and they kick a**!! However, what they lack is the submission. Look at Dan Severn in his first UFC show. Great takedowns, but had a very hard time with submission. In UFC5, he came back, and in addition to his takedown game, his striking greatly improved. He destroyed Oleg Taktarov with knee strikes.

Mike

Wrestler are really good with elbow and knee strikes because of how much the bend in wrestling exposing the knee or elbow, that is probably why the guy you are talking about in UFC5 was really good with knees.

As far as submissions go, you don't necessarily have to have good submissions to win a fight. You don't have good strikes, either, though that would help. Most submissions moves can only be used on the ground, so if you start up standing, and keep taking down a opponent, it will wear your opponent down eventually shutting him out.

In any case, most people can strike regaurdless of having no training. I'm sure if a wrestler can take down someone and then kick them in the head for a while, it will be lights out for the opponent. Same even if you are fighting a BJJ fighter. It would be hard to get around to the head of a BJJ fighter, but a wrestler is greatly trained to get around for a pin, so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. That wrestling is one of the most effective street fighting method.

 

[CrushingFist]

So WWF stuff is fake because I'm sure that wouldn't work
I never seen wrestling personally

 

[Cobra]

So WWF stuff is fake because I'm sure that wouldn't work
I never seen wrestling personally

Oh, you haven't? It is a famous Olympic sport. It is also one of the biggest high school sports too.

 

[CrushingFist]

Oh, you haven't? It is a famous Olympic sport. It is also one of the biggest high school sports too.

Sports don't work in the streets or actual situation
does it?
Sports are entertainment

 

[MJS]

I rather strike or do a technique standing and finish it as soon as it starts rather than giving it time to get to the ground or whatever. 1 STRIKE 1 KILL I heard that quote from Goju Ryu Karate (I think) but then thats a very physical art but if the person is smaller and weaker I agree there has to be some kind of locks or vital areas to hit

Again, trying to finish while standing is of course the best choice, but not always possible. IMO, its good to be prepared in the event it goes to the ground. As for the 1 shot 1 kill mentality....very over rated. You need to be precise in that 1 shot. Possible? Of course. The best thing to rely on?? Not at all!!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Wrestler are really good with elbow and knee strikes because of how much the bend in wrestling exposing the knee or elbow, that is probably why the guy you are talking about in UFC5 was really good with knees.

I would tend to think that he did some serious crosstraining with someone to improve his striking. In later UFC events, he was actually throwing punches. Anyone can throw those strikes, but having the knowledge of where to throw them....that will only come from alot of practice.

As far as submissions go, you don't necessarily have to have good submissions to win a fight. You don't have good strikes, either, though that would help. Most submissions moves can only be used on the ground, so if you start up standing, and keep taking down a opponent, it will wear your opponent down eventually shutting him out.

Not true. As I said, many of the locks and chokes in BJJ can be done standing. IMO, the person with the better strikes will most likely win the fight.

In any case, most people can strike regaurdless of having no training. I'm sure if a wrestler can take down someone and then kick them in the head for a while, it will be lights out for the opponent. Same even if you are fighting a BJJ fighter. It would be hard to get around to the head of a BJJ fighter, but a wrestler is greatly trained to get around for a pin, so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. That wrestling is one of the most effective street fighting method.

Yes, people can throw kicks and punches, but you cant compare a trained martial artist throwing strikes to someone like a wrestler who is not used to that. As for whos better on the ground...again, when you're talking about equal skill, its whoever can out think the other person.

Mike

 

[Gaston]

Grappling skills allow you the choice as to whether or not to go to the ground; and when/if you do in what manner it will be. I have heard many arguments with regards to striking vs. grappling. I assume the definition of a strike being an impact to the human body by a moving object. In a street fight the most powerful strike you can deliver would be to reverse that definition and turn the person’s body into the moving object. Because unlike your hand, foot, or whatever you use to strike, the variety of objects to throw someone into, off of, or through are more deadly than any force the human body can deliver. When a skillfully executed throw propels your opponent at _????_the “striker” quickly becomes the “stricken”. As for what _???_ is just look around at all the things you would least like to have your body impact.

 

[Bod]

If you are comparing equal skill levels then the BJJ man would win against the wrestler if they are wearing more clothing. The wrestler would win if they were wearing less clothing.

Can sports help you in a fight? Track and field might help you run away. U.S. football or Rugby might help you evade and barge past people. Synchronised swimming? Only if you've remembered your nose clip.

Don't forget, all humans and animals originally learn to fight 'at play'.

 

[MJS]

If you are comparing equal skill levels then the BJJ man would win against the wrestler if they are wearing more clothing. The wrestler would win if they were wearing less clothing.

How do you figure??? Granted, the gi can be used to assist in submissions but many of the fighters today are not wearing one. It may take away from some of the submissions, but the BJJ stylist shouldnt have a problem with submissions regardless if they had one or not.

Mike

 

[Cobra]

Ya, BJJ does work very effectively without clothes cause many champs in the UFC primary art is BJJ and UFC fighters mainly wear short tights. But then again, there are many champs with a primary art of wrestling. so it is hard to tell.

How would you do a cross choke without a gi? It is hard to just grab their inner shoulders or back neck.

 

[MJS]

How would you do a cross choke without a gi? It is hard to just grab their inner shoulders or back neck.

Well, obviously you wouldnt do that choke. There are other chokes and submissions to fall back on.

Mike

 

[Bod]

He, he. That's why I qualified with 'of equal skill'. The UFC BJJers you are talking about trained without the gi, as well as with the Gi, and they were of superlative skill levels. If they were winning without the Gi, do you think the Gi would have made things easier or harder?

Is no-Gi stuff BJJ? Or is it submission wrestling?

Some styles of wrestling allow submissions and some don't. I'm sure that would be a factor in deciding a 'winner' in a street fight. Say a wrestler pinned a BJJer for the whole of sixteen hours on the street. Does he win? If the BJJer submits a wrestler on the street does he win? What if the wrestler, hugely more experienced than the BJJer in this instance taps the BJJer on the street. Does that constitute a win, or a disqualification, according to high school wrestling rules?

I was trying to move away from the 'argument of which style is better?' towards 'what are the specialities/weaknesses of each style?', which is a far more productive question.

I do judo and get to train with Olympic style wrestlers and BJJers who also train judo. One chap I have trained with only twice is from Brazil, and I heard was a BJJ black belt (he is a judo black belt too). 'OK' I thought 'sloppy throws followed by lightning ground work'. Wrong. The cleanest most judo pure throws I had seen in ages against our clubs 5th dans. Turned out he was a 5th dan judoka too. And his ground work always ended in submissions. He was playing by the most constraining rules and aesthetic principles of judo and BJJ. Only the purest of the pure for him.

Someone told me that he is a Pan-American champion. Not surprising.

But, and this is the point, is he a judoka or a BJJer?

Is a man enhanced by or constrained by the arts he practices?

On the mat he is constrained. In the street he is enhanced.

 

[MJS]

He, he. That's why I qualified with 'of equal skill'. The UFC BJJers you are talking about trained without the gi, as well as with the Gi, and they were of superlative skill levels. If they were winning without the Gi, do you think the Gi would have made things easier or harder?

Back in the first UFC, Royce wore a gi all the time. Once guys like Marco Ruas entered, you'll notice that he wore no gi. People are not stupid. Once they started to get a good or better understanding of BJJ and the ground game, they say the pros/cons of the gi, and it looks like they opted to go w/o one. To answer the above question: It all depends on how they were trying to submit the guy. Like I said, they should be able to adapt to gi and no gi.

Is no-Gi stuff BJJ? Or is it submission wrestling?

Its still BJJ IMO.

Some styles of wrestling allow submissions and some don't. I'm sure that would be a factor in deciding a 'winner' in a street fight. Say a wrestler pinned a BJJer for the whole of sixteen hours on the street. Does he win? If the BJJer submits a wrestler on the street does he win? What if the wrestler, hugely more experienced than the BJJer in this instance taps the BJJer on the street. Does that constitute a win, or a disqualification, according to high school wrestling rules?

What is your definition of submission? A pin? If thats the case, IMO, that is not a submission. My BJJ teacher teaches a class at a local college. I show up from time to time and the last time I was there, there was a guy who was on the wrestling team. He had attended a few BJJ classes, but his main background is wrestling. We rolled 2 times. We started off on our knees. He took me down right away, but could not submit me!! Pretty much the entire time we was just holding me down. I'll give him credit though...he actually tried a rear naked choke, but couldnt get it. Too much muscle instead of technique, and THAT was his mistake! Notice Dan Severn in his first UFC appearance. NO subsmissions at all, just throws. After his 2nd show, he was doing more strikes and eventually started doing subs.

I was trying to move away from the 'argument of which style is better?' towards 'what are the specialities/weaknesses of each style?', which is a far more productive question.

I agree. Again, it all depends on the situation. Both have their respective pros and cons.


Mike

 

[Littledragon]

I do both martial arts, the styles are the best. Both of those martial arts in my opionion are the best self-defense arts in a street fight. But who would win if a person of same experiance went against each other?

Consider both of there strenghts. Wrestlers obviosly dominate standing up, but BJJ has ground domination. If a BJJ guy gets the wrestler down, it can be all over for the wrestler despite he has wrestled on the ground, but only to turn him over. But if the wrestler can keep from being tooken to the ground, then the BJJ guy wil be in trouble. So who do you think would win?

It is a hard desicion, but I am going to go with the wrestler. All fights start standing, no one is going to start a fight on the ground. So already a wrestler has an advantage in starting standing up.

I obviously can't enforce anything, but try to not to get so passionate about whichevr style you pick. I don't want any verbal fights to break out on this thread like "My style is better than yours, so shut the hell up!" Also give a good reason why you chose whichever style you picked.

In my opinion there is no BEST style for self defense. In order to be the best you have to be a multi dimensional fighter. You must know how to kick, punch, grapple etc... I think BJJ is one of the most effective arts for the treet but no style is hailed as the BEST.

Tarek Hussein

 

[psi_radar]

Wrestling was designed as a sport, the goal of which is to establish dominance by pinning.

Resulting Disadvantages:
the last thing a wrestler will instinctively do is get into the guard position; they'd rather put their back to you and get to their "base". At this point, a savvy adversary could pick from a litany of chokes or strikes to do them in.

Advantages: Wrestlers are great at shoot and shoot counters, and highly agile on the ground in general, including escapes. The level of conditioning required for wrestling is also extremely high, and some of the techniques (basket, guillotine, ball and chain, standing quarter nelson, double bar arm, turk ride, etc.) can take the fight right out of someone, and cause exhaustion or a submission. As long as one of their buddies doesn't stomp them first.

On the other hand, select any type of JJ, these arts were designed, at least initially, as battlefield and self defense arts. As a result, they're more oriented toward fighting than competition and well rounded as well--they include some striking at least.

I hold wrestling in the highest esteem, and have integrated a lot of its techniques into my MA repertoire. However, if I thought it was a complete or even adequate method of self defense, I wouldn't have started training in Kenpo or any other MA. Same goes for B/JJ--it's good stuff but you have to be able to fight from all ranges.

 

[Kane]

Some people say Wrestling is the sport version of Pankration, just like how judo is the sport version of Ju Jitsu. Though wrestling and judo are sports and have less dangerous techniques, it is still very effective to get a fighter in a position to do a dangerous moves. Wrestling also does have a few leg submissions of their own.

 

[Aaron Little]

It is important to remember that, just as wrestling teaches one to take their opponent to the ground, it also provides one a great degree of skill in defending takedwons as well. It can be quite difficult to put a skilled wrestler on the ground if he does not want to go there.

 

[Shogun]

They all (various arts) have their ranges and specialties. For instance, Judo, Shuai Jiao, and Catch-wrestling have better takedowns, but Jujutsu, BJJ, Sambo, and pankration are more versed on the ground. however, all of them have a little of every range. Its possible for a BJJ fighter to be better at takedowns than a takedown artist (like the Rodrigo Gracie/Daiju Takase match).


Personally, I think Shuai Jiao is the next great ring sport.

 

[bignick]

i swear...there needs to be a rule about posting a "art vs. art" question...they go nowhere...they always start the same....

"if someone from art A fought someone from art B....and they were equally skilled...who'd win?....i'm gonna say art A...(cause that's what i do, believe it or not)"

search around and you'll find plenty of these threads and they never accomplish anything...unless the original point of the post was to start a verbal fight...

who'd win? who knows? who cares?...when i was a white belt in judo and jujitsu...i would do groundwork with a guy that wrestled for 15 years...had a black belt in jujitsu and a brown in judo...most of the time he'd kill me...wouldn't even know what hit me...but every once and a while...he'd slip up and i'd get a choke or a good pin and i'd win...i remember one time he left himself open for a rear naked choke and i slapped it on so fast he tapped out like that...does that mean that all white belts in judo and jujitsu can beat all wrestlers and black belts in jujitsu?

wrestling and bjj both have strong points and both could be used quite effectively in a self defense situation...and if you think they couldn't...you got another thunk coming...

and i stll want to see everybody's research on "95% of fights go to the ground.." or "the best place to fight is standing up..." and so on...real fights don't last long...wanna see a real fight...watch two women that are pissed at each other...that's real violence...no joke...most "fights" with guys are shoving matches and chest thumping trying to prove who's the top male...real fights don't have winners

 

[RMACKD]

Each art has its own strength and weaknesses. For example

Wrestling

Striking-I am assuming we are talking about Greco-Roman and Freestyle. These arts have no strikes.
Clinch/Takedown
Wrestling is very strong in this area.
Groundwork
Emphasis is on pinning and positioning.
Multiple Opponents/Weapons removal
Has no techniques for this area.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
Striking
Has a few specialized striking techniques meant to close the distance.
Clinch/Takedowns
A bit weak in this area.
Groundwork
Emphasis on position and submission.
Multiple opponents/weapons removal
None

Both martial arts have good aspects about him. Who wins, who would know. The wrestler could knock out the bjj guy with a suplex or other high amplitude takedown and he could also score a takedown and pound his way to victory. The BJJ guy could win by submission. Both arts have strengths and weaknesses.